Diet, Nutrition and SupplementationPost here for supplement reviews or nutritional advice. If you're trying to get "ripped abz" THIS is where you should be.
Need some feeback on where my macros should be at..
Weight: 211
Height: 6'3"
Bodyfat: approx. 22%
Goal: fat loss.
Want to get down to 11-13% bf. before I start eating for mass again..
Current daily cal consumption: 2700 cals
Macronutrient percentages:
Fat: 25-35%
Carbs: 20-25%
Protein: 40-45%
I try to get in at LEAST 160g of carbs a day, and at LEAST 290-300g of protein per day.. All the carbs come from fruit or veggies.. Little to no starches..
Excersize regime: Powerlifting 4x per week, with 10 min or so of steady state cardio after WO's..
How is the current plan working for you? Are you losing weight overall? How does your trend line look for the last four or six weeks? What is making you consider any changes at all?
Macros aren't going to be exact for anyone, but that seems like a great place to start. Personally, I don't think I could handle carbs any lower than 30%, but if you can, go for it. It works for most people.
I don't agree with your cardio, but since you didn't ask for advice on that, I'll stick with what I said, unless you want my opinion on it.
Looks like I might have to tweak the cal. total a bit to keep the loss rate more or less constant, now that I'm 20 lbs. lighter..
I've been at 211 for the past week or so, so I'm CONSIDERING seeing what happens if I go down to 2600 per day..
Go on.. You know you want to.. LOL
Do HIIT instead, right?
That's a good call on changing the calorie total I think, but if it's working right now, then stick to it.
And as for the cardio, not entirely, no . I was going to suggest 1 of 3 options. One, totally scrap it because I don't think 10 minutes of steady state is doing too much. It's certainly not getting you in better cardiovascular fitness and for the minimal calories you're burning you should put that energy towards lifting or just save it. Two, yes change it to HIIT. Three, keep it steady state and increase it to around 30-40minutes. If you don't have that in you on lifting days, do it on off days.
Personally, I have no opinion about macro percentages per se.
I like to set a protein floor/goal by grams, a carb floor or ceiling by grams and then fill in the rest with fat and whatever else I want until I hit my calorie threshold. The % might be all over the place depending on if my calorie target is 1200, 1500, 1700 or 2500.
Thing is, it'd be best to do in post lifting, in my case, as:
A) I'm already there
B) I want my off days to be all about recovery
I wouldn't be able to hack HIIT after a lifting session I don't think, though..
I could see about going for 20 min of steady state, at least...
30-40 sounds excessive, after an 45 min to an hour of powerlifting (granted not as edurance oriented as hypertrophy lifting)...
As for tweaking the totals, I'll give it a few more days, and if I'm still at 211 I'll take it down 100 cals and go from there I think..
Just wanted everyone's opinion on the macro plan..
Yeah that's why I suggested doing it on off days, but since you don't want that, it's your call. To me, cardio is still pretty much resting my muscles. I could see not wanting to do it after a legs day though. I guess it depends on your routine.
Change to a more hypertrophy routine for a month. Superset exercises in a 3x8-10 setup with a 60 second rest between exercises. You can still do a upper/lower 4 day split. Better than HIIT.
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"A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have."
Just now getting my strength back up to what it used to be..
It was recommended by most of the people I talked to that I should cut that crap out, and that if I didn't want to lose muscle while cutting, I should lift heavy..
But I don't want to lose too much muscle while eating at a deficit, so it was suggested by the vast majority of those I asked that to achieve this, I should keep lifting for strength, not endurance/hypertrophy..
Again, confusing terms. Loss of muscle (atrophy) and loss of strength are different things. If you use your 10 rep weight for sets of that length you will still put create an overload situation for your muscles, which is what causes them to grow. Doing a hypertrophy routine for a month may see a drop in your max strength but that will come back quickly when returning to your powerlifting routine.
Also, hypertrophy and endurance are different things.
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"A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have."
Loss of muscle (atrophy) and loss of strength are different things.
I would argue with you there..
You cannot help but gain muscle when progressively increasing your strength by lifting heavier and heavier weights, wouldn't you agree?
And if you lose muscle, you cannot help but lose strength..
But I see what you mean..
You're saying can lose strength by switching to an endurance routine without necessarily losing muscle, and in fact the muscles would be expected to growIF I was eating at maintenence or above, which I'm not..
In any case, as I said, I'm not concerned with loss of strength..
I'm concerned with loss of muscle..
Which, as I said, was a concern of the vast majority of those I polled on the subject earlier, when I said I was cutting (a 500 cal deficit)..
If your saying otherwise, you'd be in the minority (not that they couldn't all be wrong LOL).
You're saying can lose strength by switching to an endurance routine without necessarily losing muscle, and in fact the muscles would be expected to grow IF I was eating at maintenence or above, which I'm not..
No, I'm saying if you go to hypertrophy and keep the weights high enough you will not lose muscle, even at a deficit (and a 500 cal deficit will not cause a loss of muscle). Cosgrove posted a study where people eating 800 cals per day (not an 800 calorie deficit) did not lose LBM. Lyle McDonald's Rapid Fat Loss is set up to not lose muscle and the cals are between 800-1,000 per day.
Maybe I just poll smarter people.
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"A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have."
The amount of muscle that one loses in a deficit has everything to do with how lean they are to begin with and how much of a deficit they are in and finally their overall genetic. I honestly don't get the claim's from Lyle about a generic 800-1000K a day deficit which can guarantee fat loss without muscle loss and I really don't see any convincing testimonials to the claims either.
Dougz if your avatar is recent, you have plenty of bf such that you can probably be on a fairly high deficit. I (on the other hand) have to lose at a much slower rate. I am going to give you information from Alan's Nov 2008 AARR. He says that for a moderately overweight (not obese and not average) person you can lose 2-3lbs a week and not compromise muscle loss. So Dougz keep it simple and keep your loss down to 2-3lbs a week for now. When you become more of the average build then cut down the loss to 1-2lbs a week.
With respect to setting up macros you really should subsribe to the AARR and grab the Jan 2009 issue because Alan lays out exactly how he derives macros for his clients. You said that you think Alan said to not get less than 160g of carbs.... Sheesh I wish he said that. I would LOVE to have 160g of carbs a day on my cut. I don't think he said that. Some of the best free material I have read about carbs and how many you need is on Lyle McDonald's site. He actually has an article called "How many carbs do you need" or something like that. Just an FYI the answer is zero. Alan will likely agree with Lyle's article but add that the amount of carbs you should plan is realated to the amount of activity that you do. If you are endurance athlete you need more carbs than if you are coach potato.
Again I highly recommend you splurge the 10 bucks for the Jan issue as Alan breaks it out in a very easy to read table for you based on if you are low activity, high activity or moderate activity. This will answer your question pretty definitvley I think and help you to dance around all the mis-information out there.
Also, a 2 week stall really doesn't mean anything. I would hold out for at least another 2 weeks and see if a woosh doesn't happen in that time if you are truly interested in keeping your weight loss to about the same as it was. I am thinking you did not all of a sudden develop the need for less calories as you suggest.
Hope this helps some!
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The BIGGER I get the smaller you look
Dougz I have found that all methods of measuring bf% really suck for determining if a plan is working or not. The question I have for you is are you progessing? Are you able to lift more reps or higher weights than you were before? If so, you ain't dropping a bunch of muscle. Like I said, your bf% is high enough that you would have to be on a pretty retarded program to drop a bunch of muscle. Whether you lift hypertrophy range (9-12)ish or strength range (5-8)ish or even endurance range (12-15)ish is probably pretty insignificant in this picture at this time. If I am allowed an opinion (based on my own training prescribed by Alan for this same exact goal) I say do one set of upper and one set of lower in the strength range and one in the hypertrophy range and keep your diet completely on target.
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The BIGGER I get the smaller you look
Did you read the part where I did a hypertrophy program for a month?
I've only just begun doing SS again (2 weeks or so into it)..
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He says that for a moderately overweight (not obese and not average) person you can lose 2-3lbs a week and not compromise muscle loss.
Wow, really?
I always here don't go more than 1 lb a week..
I really respect Alan's opinion, though, and will definitely sign up for his newsletter..
Sounds like I should definitely cut my calories by another 100, and add some more post WO cardio (10 min. or so), as well maybe one HIIT session a week, on an off day..
The avatar is from 230..
I should take some more pics here, soon..
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You said that you think Alan said to not get less than 160g of carbs.... Sheesh I wish he said that. I would LOVE to have 160g of carbs a day on my cut
I forget where I read it, but he did write it, I'm almost positive..
I just don't know for what weight that carb floor was for, or for what program he was prescribing that for..
It just stuck in my head, so I aimed to do that..
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If you are endurance athlete you need more carbs than if you are coach potato.
Well, I ain't an endurance athlete..
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This will answer your question pretty definitively I think and help you to dance around all the mis-information out there.
Yup, sounds good, thanks..
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I am thinking you did not all of a sudden develop the need for less calories as you suggest.
Well, my reasoning was I was basing the 2700 on an approximation of what I needed for calories at 230, based on a moderate activity level (WO 3x per week)..
Now I'm 20lbs lighter and I'm thinking a 100 cal drop isn't such a radical shift..
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Dougz I have found that all methods of measuring bf% really suck for determining if a plan is working or not.
Agreed..
The only measurements I am going by is body weight..
I'm starting to stall out a bit, and am wondering whether I should maybe tweak the macros a bit (less carbs, for example), and/or cut calories a bit more..
And yes, add some more dreaded cardio..
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The question I have for you is are you progessing? Are you able to lift more reps or higher weights than you were before?
This is hard to say as I'm just getting off a month of a hypertrophy/endurance program (NROL break in, to be precise), and I got off it after I did a bf measurement and it appeared as if I was losing as much muscle as fat..
People were saying perhaps that's why (my switching to a hypertrophy program while eating at a deficit)..
So I started SSing again (3x5, bench, chin ups, squats, rows, OH press, deads), and am just now clawing my numbers up to what they were before..
Looks like I'm stalled on my bench, as a matter of fact..
The fact that I'm eating at a defecit may well be the culprit..
But at least I know I haven't LOST any strength, and hopefully that follows that I haven't lost any muscle..
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I say do one set of upper and one set of lower in the strength range and one in the hypertrophy range and keep your diet completely on target
What I HAVE done is I've started doing 1 or 2 backdown sets on squats and bench press and shoot for 7-8 reps..
Completely cutting carbs out is totally unnecessary. It would work, sure, but you definitely don't need to. Kfisher is right that you don't NEED carbs. Your body makes energy in other ways. That being said, unless you're doing a keto diet, if your carbs are too low, you will likely have less energy. But don't get fooled into thinking that you have to cut out carbs to lose weight. It's just not true.
Doug, the 23% makes sense to me. You measurements in the beginning of your log had you at a 41" waist and almost 45" chest. That plays out to be about 23%. Did you have measurements for you current weight? I just don't think you lost 19 lbs and only 7 lbs of fat. I'm pretty sure you said you'd gotten below 20% somewhere else.
The reason I ask about your measurements is that if your waist is down to 37", for example, that puts you at about 18% BF. That would leave you at 173 lbs LBM which I would consider a very successful fat loss (75/25 fat to LBM loss). I just wanted to make sure that everyone gets a true picture of where you're at. I think you've been more successful that you're giving yourself credit for.
I really respect Alan's opinion, though, and will definitely sign up for his newsletter..
That number is quoted mostly for competition people to get uber lean. So those are lean people to start. For people with more bf% you can rock it down and still gain muscle even. Remember that he recommends you set your cals and macros for your goal weight not your current weight. You may end up dropping even more than 100 cals. BTW: If you are a newbie and high bf% you can rest assured that you'll do fine on almost ANY program that you stick to.
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Originally Posted by dougz
Sounds like I should definitely cut my calories by another 100, and add some more post WO cardio (10 min. or so), as well maybe one HIIT session a week, on an off day..
Most of the trainers that I respect get fat loss through diet not through cardio. I don't know why you are jumping around on ss cardio, HIIT and all this other crazy stuff. Figure out your diet and lift to gain muscle and add cardio only after you've established some good results. If you HAVE to do cardio walk from the back of the parking lot, walk up the stairs, take a walk at lunch, stand for meetings, etc. (In other words UP your NEAT) BTW: What program are you doing now? Are you still doing NROL?
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Originally Posted by dougz
I forget where I read it, but he did write it, I'm almost positive..
Well Alan personally writes my nutrition plan and I am permitted only 120g a day so I know FOR SURE that he did not say it for everyone and every situation. 'cause I would about kill to have 160g a day. You will be able to figure out exactly what your macros should be from the Jan article on this subject.
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The BIGGER I get the smaller you look
What program are you doing now? Are you still doing NROL?
No, like I said, I dropped it after a month and went back to SS when alot of people here and elsewhere started telling me that while eating at a deficit especially, I should be lifting heavy..
I might start doing the Maximum Strength program by Cressey..
As soon as I figure out how to do box squats..
Already doing the foam roller and mobility stuff..
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You will be able to figure out exactly what your macros should be from the Jan article on this subject.
You never did New Rules. Unless doing 4 workouts is doing it. After the four you changed it, adding strength reps to the break in program. That's not doing New Rules.
So it's been Starting Strength, 4 NROL workouts, back to Starting Strength and now may Maximum Strength. All while the "goal" is cutting bodyfat in half.
Does anybody see what the problem is?
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"A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have."
Need some feeback on where my macros should be at..
I'm pretty sure you said you'd gotten below 20% somewhere else.
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