Diet, Nutrition and SupplementationPost here for supplement reviews or nutritional advice. If you're trying to get "ripped abz" THIS is where you should be.
NROL has a basic philosophy difference from SS. Everything in NROL is about being more functional and healthy (using the six basic movements, etc), while getting stronger, bigger, or smaller. SS is about getting stronger (and bigger).
Doug, are you following a specific diet or are you just eating at a deficit with information about macros culled from various newsletters, articles, books, etc.?
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"A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have."
But everybody at the time was telling me the way to my goal (fat loss with minimal muscle loss) was weight on the bar..
I'm not sure where the "weight on the bar" discussion happened, so it's hard to comment.
If you eat less than you burn and keep "weight on the bar," then it's fine. That's a minimalist approach, and I'm sure it works.
So, does NROL's approach. Those singles and sets of 6 are the weight on the bar that we're talking about. Even the FL routines are plenty of weight on the bar unless you are a more advanced lifter.
Minimalist Program
Two days a week, do 7x3 (6RM) for each exercise. Each week, add a set until you do 10x3. After 10x3, a tiny amount of weight and recycle.
A1, Deadlift
A2, Military Press
A3, Chinups
30 seconds between each set and superset.
A1, Squat
A2, DB Floor Press
A3, DB Rows
30 seconds between each set and superset.
The bigger the deficit, the more attractive this one is, since you have time for recovery.
Low intensity cardio is just fine, after your weight training (2 days) and try to go walking or riding (or housecleaning, laundry, car washing, lawnwork, garage cleanup, etc.) on other days.
Doug, are you following a specific diet or are you just eating at a deficit with information about macros culled from various newsletters, articles, books, etc.?
Like I said earlier, I started by just eating at a 500 cal deficit (2700), measuring my food with a digital scale, ala Leigh Peele's Fat Loss Troubleshoot..
No specific diet, as far as meal plans, per se....
Just eating "clean", lots of fruits and veggies, and no starches unless after a work out..
That's been working great, and I've lost 20 lbs..
Then, after being stuck for two weeks or so I came on here asking whether perhaps I might get things moving downwards again by tweaking my macros (anything to avoid cardio LOL).. Maybe less carbs, I thought..
And so I learned via this thread about Alan's newsletter, and I read there about his suggested macro breakdown for linear intake, moderate activity (P= 1-1.3g per lbs of bw, C= 1-1.5g, F= .4-.5), which for me, using a target weight of 190, and the lowest carb modifier (1g per lbs), and the highest protein and fat modifiers, gives me 2600 cals a day, and a ratio of F 33%,C 29%, P 38% ..
So I've been TRYING to stick to that..
Hardest part has been getting enough carbs in, as I've been trying to stick to just fruits and veggies, hardly any starches (ala Precision Nutrition)..
And let's just say fruit and veggies aren't the most carb-dense of foods..
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NROL has plenty of weight on the bar.
Well, that's relative, of course..
I can squat 255 lbs 3x5 times, or I can squat 155 lbs (or whatever it was when I was doing the NROL break in, I can't remember) 3x15 times..
People (here, and on other forums) were saying I was better off lifting more weight less times..
Are they right? That's still up for discussion..
Could I have eventually progressed to the point where I was lifting 255 lbs 10 times? Presumably, yes..
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it wasn't thread crapping, it was simply a fact.
No offense, but one-sentence, non-constructive facts and thread craps aren't mutually exclusive, IMHO..
Isn't the break in only four weeks or so? There's not much that's going to happen in that amount of time. Studies show that people can go weeks without training and still retain muscle mass.
It doesn't seem that you're listening/getting the fact that your over thinking this stuff no matter what the sentence or paragraph length.
It doesn't seem that you are listening/getting the fact that telling me that I am "over thinking this stuff" without elaborating in any way whatsoever isn't constructive, and is what I would term a "thread crap"..
Definitions may vary, I can understand that..
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if i typed out multiple paragraphs of vegetable sewage to prove my point, would that make it that much more effective?
You mean if you gave us the slightest inkling as to what I or the people responding to this thread were over thinking in particular, and how to address that?
Yes, that WOULD have made it much more effective.
Thanks for elaborating afterwords, though!
I DO appreciate it!
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Isn't the break in only four weeks or so? There's not much that's going to happen in that amount of time.
Correct, and that's about how long I did it..
I was ready to move on to "Strength" or "Fat Loss I" when I started getting flak for lifting so light and was inclined to abandon it and return to SS till I come up with a better idea..
NROL Strength has high reps for the strength programs, too, which I find odd..
Like I said earlier, I started by just eating at a 500 cal deficit (2700), measuring my food with a digital scale, ala Leigh Peele's Fat Loss Troubleshoot..
No specific diet, as far as meal plans, per se....
Just eating "clean", lots of fruits and veggies, and no starches unless after a work out..
That's been working great, and I've lost 20 lbs..
Then, after being stuck for two weeks or so I came on here asking whether perhaps I might get things moving downwards again by tweaking my macros (anything to avoid cardio LOL).. Maybe less carbs, I thought..
And so I learned via this thread about Alan's newsletter, and I read there about his suggested macro breakdown for linear intake, moderate activity (P= 1-1.3g per lbs of bw, C= 1-1.5g, F= .4-.5), which for me, using a target weight of 190, and the lowest carb modifier (1g per lbs), and the highest protein and fat modifiers, gives me 2600 cals a day, and a ratio of F 33%,C 29%, P 38% ..
So I've been TRYING to stick to that..
Hardest part has been getting enough carbs in, as I've been trying to stick to just fruits and veggies, hardly any starches (ala Precision Nutrition)..
And let's just say fruit and veggies aren't the most carb-dense of foods..
That's a lot of stuff from a lot of different sources. How do they all interplay with each other? If it was me I would pick one source and follow that plan to the letter. At least you would know if the results promised can be achieved (I would also use the lowest numbers for all in Alan's calculation and get down to 2200 cals. I don't think you'll see much of a change knocking off 100 cals.)
I haven't read Alan's AARR (I'm cheap) but what are his thoughts on staying in a deficit for a substantial length of time?
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"A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have."
That's a lot of stuff from a lot of different sources. How do they all interplay with each other?
Pretty well, actually..
The main thrust, and what has been by far the most effective, is the calorie reduction..
The people at PN want you to start out initially at 3000-3500 cals a day..
But I went straight into "individualization", whereby I already knew approx. where I needed to be, intake wise, in order to lose fat..
I also learned (well, finally got behind, more correctly) to eat my veggies..
I was a confirmed meat and potatoes man before, and I'd go weeks without something green on my plate..
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I haven't read Alan's AARR (I'm cheap) but what are his thoughts on staying in a deficit for a substantial length of time?
That's a good question, and lacks only for a definition of "substantial" and how big a deficit we're talking about..
I'll email him and hopefully (my luck's been good so far) he'll get back to me..
I may have missed info already provided in the newsletter on that very subject, so hopefully I'm not pissing him off by asking him all these questions.. LOL
My guess is that a 500 cal deficit isn't THAT hard on the metabolism, even over several months..
The only thing I would think is if you eat at a 500 calorie deficit over several months does your body recognize that it's still a deficit?
Recognize how?
I'm not sure WHAT the body does, exactly, when it goes into "starvation" mode (and yes, I know we're not talking about anything remotely approaching that), beyond the fact that it will start eating muscle if there's no fat to be had, or adequate stimulus to retain the muscle you have..
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Also, calorie reduction will always work for weight loss no matter what the diet plan.
Yup, pretty simple, I agree..
The trick, in my opinion, is how to loose weight and hold onto muscle..
I should re-read Leigh's Fat Loss Troubleshooter and Metabolic Repair as well, and see what she says about prolonged deficit eating..
I'm not sure WHAT the body does, exactly, when it goes into "starvation" mode (and yes, I know we're not talking about anything remotely approaching that), beyond the fact that it will start eating muscle if there's no fat to be had, or adequate stimulus to retain the muscle you have..
Alco's head will explode if he reads that
The reason you get weight loss is that you give your body less calories than what it is used to (maintenance calories). After several months of a deficit does the body "think" that this level is your new maintenance calories?
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"A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have."
Well, if you can't hold onto the muscle you gained when you are bulking, I just can't see the point..
Two steps forward.... two steps back?
It's more like two steps forward and one step back. And if I have a good nutritionist I might be able to make it 2 steps forward and .5 steps back. At the end of a bulk/cut cycle the idea is to have a net gain...
Dougz just keep it simple like the guys are saying.... I am a bodybuilder in pre-contest stage right now. As a bber I do bulks and cuts. Since you have read all the AARRs go back to the culking one and see if you can find what Alan says about cutting and bulking for non-bodybuilding clients.......
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The BIGGER I get the smaller you look
Since you have read all the AARRs go back to the culking one and see if you can find what Alan says about cutting and bulking for non-bodybuilding clients.
I got asked to jump in (dougz). If I missed something or if it was repeated then just ignore or point me to what I missed.
Doug in your PM you wrote...
"I'm getting into a discussion about the effects of PROLONGED (say 6 months) calorie deficit eating (say 500-1000 cals a day).."
I am going to assume from that you are asking if it is a good idea to stay in a prolonged deficit for roughly 6 months.
In short I don't recommend it, even at higher body fat levels for multiple reasons. To name a few the body adjust to dieting down ranging from activity expenditure to actual metabolic function. The 500 calorie deficit will no longer be and it will downgrade.
It is best to take part in scheduled breaks and refeeds. I think Bob was right in his suggestion on sticking with a method and going with it. It doesn't mean you can't still educate yourself from multiple sources, but at this point and time it seems to be leading to confusion.
OPT Remix has refeeds implemented into the training program.
UD2 is a Cycling Program.
There are also other sticky thread style programs out there that have a basis in cycling and refeeds.
Try to lesson your information overlead, take breaks, and keep it simple.
I've been eating at a deficit for about 3 months now (with some unplanned higher cal days thrown in), and have been seeing results (20lbs so far)..
I'm close to my goal (190), but it looks like I should settle for 200, then start eating at maintenence again for a month? or so, and then start again..
Is there any difference if you do staggered (non-linear) cal intake days?
If you're going to look at OPT Remix and think that it will work for you then you have to commit to following it, to the letter, for the 12 weeks. You can't mix and match and expect to be successful. And success is not measured if there are any changes between weeks 3 and 4 - success will be measured when you have completed the full program. Keep your eye on that prize.
Oh, Happy Birthday.
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"A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have."
I just want to see what Leigh's talking about re: refeeds, and breaks, and see how long I should eat at maintenence again before I start eating at a deficit again..
I have to do more reading on the risk/benefits of "crash" diets..
They can't be THAT good, or everybody would be doing them, no?
And for sure I'd be more at risk of losing muscle, you'd think..
For now, like I say, I'll do this for a couple more weeks, or till I hit a consistent 200 lbs, then I'll eat at maintenence for a while so I don't get my metabolism too used to the deficit, then I'll start over again..
I've been doing Lyle McDonald's Rapid Fat Loss for a month. It's far more extreme than what you are doing. I've lost a good amount of fat with minimal LBM loss. And I'm only doing 2 bodyweight full body workouts a week.
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"A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have."
I've been doing Lyle McDonald's Rapid Fat Loss for a month. It's far more extreme than what you are doing. I've lost a good amount of fat with minimal LBM loss. And I'm only doing 2 bodyweight full body workouts a week.
Oh yeah?
So you'd recommend it?
How much for the program?
What are you trying to get down to?
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I've lost a good amount of fat with minimal LBM loss.
There's the danger! You end up swapping around and never staying with one thing. So, you never really know what helped the most. Listen, to me....the person not following any prescribed program!
But, in the end, you know that its all about calories. The workouts are a part of it. And as long as the program pushes you, then you won't lose muscle mass. But, its about the thermodynamics first and foremost!
That's why I'm not as concerned about programming at this stage. I know that as long as I keep pushing myself, and don't overdo the cardio, that I'll be fine. When this stage is over and I'm working on weight gain, then I'll be more concerned about programming aspects.
As a newbie I wouldn't recommend it for you. I've read all the things you have read and much, much more. I have a better understanding of what Lyle is going for and I know better how to react to the diet as things happen. This will just lead to more confusion on your part. You already have too much of that going on.
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"A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have."
I started out just exercising portion control. I used to be a long distance runner, but due to injuries I can't go out and run 6 days per week. So, doing tones of running wasn't an option. I didn't start lifting until about 8 months ago. For the first two months or so I was inconsistent, and following the typically poor advice that you peice together from "the bros" and magazines, etc.
But, eventually I realized that I didn't know what I was doing and started educating myself.
So, what do I do?
I eat at a sizeable deficit 6 days per week, and eat at a surplus on Sundays.
I really don't worry about macro breakdown that much. I just try to get a good amount of protein, and veggies, and avoid food that is obviously not conducive to weight loss, i.e. twinkies.
I don't eat 5 to 6 times per day. I usually do three meals, and pre or post workout meals. Often times one of the three main meals is my pre or post workout nutrition.
I lift three to four days per week. Usually following a three full body days, or upper lower split routine.
I use compound movements, mostly deads, squats, and chin ups/pull ups. I go as heavy as I can, and usually don't do anything over six reps.
I do cardio as much as I can. Usually, two or three sessions per week. But, I don't kill myself with it.
I keep a food journal, and a lifting journal.
Thats what I do.
Because of certain circumstances, I don't follow a prescribed routine. I would like to. And I intend to do so when I can. But, right now I can't. And because I'm still working on losing weight I really don't think it matters that much. As long as I lift heavy-ish at least once per week I doubt that I'll lose any muscle.
I just try to keep certain key concepts in mind, and to progress as much as I can in my lift. I've made huge improvements in my strength despite eating at a deficit for well over a year. I've gained muscle mass in the last six months.....but I have no way of quanitifying that. It's simply what I can see by looking at myself.
The physiological stuff is the stuff I talk about all the time here on the site, on the forum and elsewhere. When folks diet and lose weight/fat, the body adjusts metabolic rate downwards. While a majority of this is simply due to weighing less (smaller bodies burn fewer calories), there is also an adaptive component, a greater decrease in metabolic rate than would be predicted due to changes in things like leptin, insulin, thyroid hormones, etc.
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"A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have."
Linear Mode
