Diet, Nutrition and SupplementationPost here for supplement reviews or nutritional advice. If you're trying to get "ripped abz" THIS is where you should be.
Yeah... My caveat when I said you'd have a hard time screwing up is that you actually stick to a non-retarded plan. Plan jumping is retarded. Pick one Doug and STICK TO IT! All the plans you started would work just fine if you get your diet in order. Some may work better than others and a strickly strength program my not be the best but it would work too if you got your diet in order. The point is.... Stop making changes and freaking out every 4 weeks.
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The BIGGER I get the smaller you look
You're worried too much about losing LBM on a deficit. There are a lot of ways to retain muscle on a deficit, but I can guarantee that your LBM numbers are going to go down because all sorts of other tissues and water count as LBM. ...and you're going to lose some of them, might as well prepare yourself or be setup for dissappointment. LBM is not just muscle, though.
NROL provides plenty of volume and stimulus to build/retain muscle on a deficit. SS is a lower volume plan, but heavier, that will provide plenty of stimulus to build/retain muscle on a deficit.
BTW, Eric's MS will also work, but MS is more advanced that SS, so you're probably not ready for it.
Uh sure... Apples to apples and when I ask you if you are progressing, you can't tell me because.... well because you are plan jumping. Had you spent the past 12 weeks on ONE plan you would definitavely know if you are progressing/losing LBM. That is the reason you stick to a plan more than anything. So you can progress and track that progess. Otherwise you are starting and stopping all the time which doesn't help you keep LBM.
And I did not imply your diet was lacking. I only stress to get that in order first. You have the AARR now so you should be able to figure out how to do that for yourself.
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The BIGGER I get the smaller you look
You have the AARR now so you should be able to figure out how to do that for yourself.
I don't think Doug will be able to figure this out for himself because of the AARR. At least not right away. According to his log he's been training since September. In terms of Doug's training life he's a newbie. I would expect the AARR to give Doug far more questions than answers. Which is good. It will lead him (hopefully) to seek out other sources and start to piece together the common sense about training and diet.
In looking at his log Doug has been using SS since last September. Also it looks like he's been eating in the same calorie range since at least April. Given the body's penchant for homeostasis I'm not surprised he may have stalled. The stimulus needs to be changed, both in training and diet, to prevent adaptation.
I agree with Roland that Maximum Strength will be too advanced for you at this point.
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"A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have."
What I Didn’t Like About Maximum Strength. There should have been a test to see if you’re ready for this routine. Maximum Strength isn’t for beginners. If you can’t Squat 1.5x your body-weight for 1 rep, build some base strength first. However as a beginner you could start with the soft tissue work & mobility exercises. Especially if you have nagging pains or lack flexibility. The nutrition & mindset chapters also provide good information you could use as a beginner.
Doug, this is an expert from Strong Lifts. In Eric's marketing emails, he'd indicated it was for Intermediate lifters as well. I did the entire program, but I would never do it on a calorie deficit. Not because you couldn't get through the training or it wouldn't help keep LBM, but because if you're going to do a program designed to get you through an intermediate plateau, why not do it when you're fully primed for gains?
As Roland said, you can accomplish the LBM and strength maintenance through SS or NROL.
You have the AARR now so you should be able to figure out how to do that for yourself.
I read the articles on macros and diet in general..
So, let's say my goal weight is 190 lbs, and whatever body fat % that comes with it (hopefully close to 11%, 'cause going lower than that.. I dunno...).
That means according to Alan's formula I'm looking these daily totals to achieve my target weight:
247g of protein (190x1.3), 190g (190x1.0) of carbs, and 95g (190x0.5) of fat.
That gives me 2603 calories a day.. 33/29/38
Have I got this right?
This is definitely doable, as I was going to lop off another 100 cals from my 2700 plan anyways..
But what do I do when I plateau again? LOL
Also, kfisherx, you were saying Alan recommended a significantly lower carb intake in your case.
Why is that?
What am I missing?
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The stimulus needs to be changed, both in training and diet, to prevent adaptation.
Well, I can cut cals..
But how do I change stimulus via training?
Different excersizes?
This question I posed to myself is nagging me..
If I'm training for strength and size, but not eating for it, what is happening?
I just lose fat, but hold onto muscle, hopefully, right?
I should aks Alan what he thinks about the concept of 11% body fat being the ideal jump off point for eating for mass with minimum fat gain..
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I did the entire program, but I would never do it on a calorie deficit.
No, I'm not married to NROL (although you may notice the changes are built into the program). I've done some of the routines and think they are effective. But I think EDT is effective, Waterbury's routines are effective, the original Iron Manual is effective. In the right hands.
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"A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have."
Doug, You and I are at relatively similar places in our training lives. Except you have two big advantages over me. One, you've been following a "real" program; whether its NROL or SS. Second, you have access to much better equipment. I've been piecing together what information I can from different sources and trying to apply it to my very limited (but improving) equipment.
I know for a fact that I have lost no muscle mass, and I'm pretty sure that I've gained some, in the last six months (I wasn't recording or thinking about it prior to that). I know that my legs and forearms are bigger, and I think my back is bigger. But, I definitely haven't lost muscle. Even with my lack of good programs and equipment I've been able to avoid muscle loss.
I mention this because I really doubt that you lost 12 pounds of muscle in two months! It's far more likely that the body fat tests weren't accurate. And don't forget that your body can store a lot of glycogen, and that accounts for LBM as well. So, what ever difference you are seeing could be a result of glycogen loss.....but not 12 pounds worth.
Doug, I have very limited time right now for the board but wanted to come here RE your PM to me. To me it looks like you have a good starting ground for your macros. It's pretty hard to screw them up based on the straight forward way it is written out in AARR. Go with this plan for awhile and see where it gets you. A couple o' things overall...
1. Glad you are not worried about muscle loss anymore so much. I mean it really is sort of hard to do from your stand point.
2. Don't focus on scale loss either quite so much. If the scale stalls for 2 weeks it doesn't mean that your body has adapted to anything. It means you have a woosh coming up. If the scale doesn't move but your clothes fit better than you are doing EXACTLY what you want to do.... "culking" (see the AARR if you don't know what the is) If the scale stalls for a month and you aren't really sure that you are counting cals correctly, then you can cut back some (BUT KEEP THE SAME PROGRAM)
3. Stick to ONE program where you can accurately measure your progress over the next 6 months. It will help you overall understand what is happening because BF% measuring devices all suck. This is the thing that will assure you that you are gaining muscle more than anything.
Good luck with it.
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The BIGGER I get the smaller you look
you said you were stalled on both bench and squat, to me that said that you were working the program with the normal attempts to increase each workout and were stalled - that is, you attempted an increase and were unable to make it.
Yeah, I just made it back up to where I was before I hurt my back and then did a month of low weight, high reps WO's (NROL) on my squats and bench a few weeks ago, and these last several WO I've had to stay put to get my 3x5 (or do some REALLY ugly reps, and I don't want that)..
Like I say, I'll TRY and see if lowering it 20lbs on each excersize and working it back up again helps..
I assumed that I should just try to stay where I am, being on a defecit..
Maybe I'm wrong..
I could try it, but again I think the assumption with that method is that you're eating for gains..
If anything I was going to try increasing the weight a bit on my bench, for less reps (3-4)..
I guess I could try both..
Spinning my wheels anyhow, till I can start eating at maintenence and above..
My BIG fear is what happens if when I eventually DO start eating like 3500 calories again and I STILL can't progress..
While it's true that the program expects at least maintenance calories, Rippetoe's advice regarding stalls seems to have more to do with nuerological effects than energy. I'd follow the reset and see what happens.
And don't worry about what happens down the road. Focus on this goal. You'll make improvements once you add more food....rest assured!
And, I can attest to what Kfisherx is saying about the whoosh. This just happened to me. I was stalling and wondering if maybe I needed to get even more severe after a couple of weeks of not seeing the scale move. Then I've lost over four pounds this week. This isn't the first time its happened to me like that. But, you still forget while its happening. You're wondering whats going on, and pondering changes, then WHammo! You make a big drop.
My BIG fear is what happens if when I eventually DO start eating like 3500 calories again and I STILL can't progress..
Completely unfounded fear I would guess. When I am on a bulk, I call what I am doing "Food-a-bol". I have never done steroids but the way I lift (compared to deficit) is much like I hear it is for folks on steriods. I get HUGE swole and can go in every single day with a ton of energy and lift like a monster. It is completely amazing.
Other people that I know who have the discipline to actually eat like they need to feel much the same. Bulking is FUN. Not the eating but the lifting part!
Also a stall for 2 weeks isn't really a stall. Alan has something about that in the AARRs too I think. Let's see if I can pull it from memory...
First thing to remember is that strength gains do not happen in linear fashion (just like weight loss) and they don't happen at the same rate for each muscle group. It is important to know that a stall can happen for a number of reasons such as illness and improper or even improper timing of food and that it should not be considered a bona-fide stall unless it persists for 4 or so weeks. His recommendation for stalling is to give yourself a chill out period and only train at maintenance for 2-3 weeks and concentrate on other body parts then go back. (I think it is similar to what Lisa is saying)
I am mega impressed you had the endurance to read through all the AARRs. I still have not yet done that. Reading even one of them takes me nearly the full month. LOL!
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The BIGGER I get the smaller you look
His recommendation for stalling is to give yourself a chill out period and only train at maintenance for 2-3 weeks and concentrate on other body parts then go back. (I think it is similar to what Lisa is saying)
That's referencing a strength stall?
Definately missed that bit..
Why would I stop training those body parts for 2-3 weeks?
And I should start eating at maintenance again for that period?
Confused..
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I am mega impressed you had the endurance to read through all the AARRs. I still have not yet done that. Reading even one of them takes me nearly the full month. LOL!
Well, truth be told, it was more of a run through..
I just read the articles and studies that were of interest to me (applicable to my situation somehow), and when he got too technical and felt my eyes start to glaze I just skipped to the "summery points/application" section.. LOL
I'll go over them in more detail in the coming weeks..
Why would I stop training those body parts for 2-3 weeks?
And I should start eating at maintenance again for that period?
Keep in mind Doug that I am a 45 (nearly 46) 125 lb year old female so what I do on my plan is NOT necessarily what you need to do on your plan. I also am more ecto than not and burn at a pretty high rate. I am queen of NEAT. I am also pretty damned lean even in my bulk compared to you.
Now to your questions....
1. In the bulk, I do some culk but focus more on a nice slow bulk. On my cut I do mostly culk. I am happy if the scale isn't moving 'cause that means I am displacing fat with muscle. If the scale is moving downwards (in my case... remember I am very learn) it means I am dropping some muscle. I find it rather funny in fact that you freak out over losing LBM but are looking for scale weight drops at the same time. This is why it is important for you to focus on ONE goal. My goal is culk right now. Yours if fat loss. (2 completely different things)
2. I ate around 2-4 hundred cals a day over maintain cals on my bulk. My bulk diet was non-linear. I ate more cals on some days than others. My macros and meal timings are very specific as are my workouts. My plan is setup for my ultimate success all the way around.
3. You'll have to ask Alan why he suggests that specifically. I generally just do what he says. And for fucks sake NO, don't start eating at maintenance again unless you want to change your goal. Your goal is fat loss so stick to it already and accept the fact that you will lose some muscle in the overall scheme of things. Seriously, just stick to the guidelines as they are laid on in the AARR, keep in mind that fat loss and strength gains are non-linear and go with the flow without all this overthinking.
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The BIGGER I get the smaller you look
Fat loss, strength gains, size gains, etc aren't linear, and at this stage, perfecting things will make little difference. Don't fall into the trap of getting too many techniques going at once. If you ever have a real stall, you'll have nothing new to add. Then what?
Eat less than you burn and you'll lose fat. One big benefit of staying with one program for a longer period is that the calorie/burn level is relatively stable, so you can more easily track your calorie intake vs the calorie burn and make small adjustments up/down.
When you try drastically different programs OR start adding things (HIIT/intervals/complexes/extr a cardio) into existing programs, you no longer have a constant to adjust to.
Earlier, when the discussion of changing things around periodically came up, I wanted to say that I agreed, but the change you get from going from one program to another is harder to manage when you consider the calorie part of it. Most longer term programs have managed change built in, so the calorie burn will stay more steady.
If you're sitting at 20%+ bf, simply lowering your calories more, and/or adding in a cardio session or two will help you drop more weight.
Make sure you're on a good lifting program too. Compound movements with minimal rest periods are good.
When you get into the lower bf is when things get tricky and you need to think more about this stuff.
If your weight stalls, either eat less, or add in a little more cardio when keeping protein high, fats moderate, and carbs in the moderate/lower area.
Just my 2 cents.
There, was that so hard?
Sorry.. Thread crapping is one of my pet peeves..
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I find it rather funny in fact that you freak out over losing LBM but are looking for scale weight drops at the same time.
Well, if you can't hold onto the muscle you gained when you are bulking, I just can't see the point..
Two steps forward.... two steps back?
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And for fucks sake NO, don't start eating at maintenance again unless you want to change your goal.
Well, no, I wasn't going to..
I was just wondering what Alan was getting at..
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One big benefit of staying with one program for a longer period is that the calorie/burn level is relatively stable, so you can more easily track your calorie intake vs the calorie burn and make small adjustments up/down.
Yup, excellent point..
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Most longer term programs have managed change built in, so the calorie burn will stay more steady.
With SS not really..
You just keep adding to the bar until you're strong enough to progress to something else..
NROL looks like a good fit, changing things up wise..
Not sure about the program, though..
It's way into wave-loading and high reps sets..
Ie.
Strength I, Workout A looks like this:
Squat
reps
6
1
6
1
10-12
15-20
ALTERNATING SETS
Bulgarian Split Squat
Step up
15x3
ALTERNATING SETS
Back extension
Swiss ball crunch
10x2
Dunno if I'm ready for 1 rep maxes, and the high rep, low rest stuff seems counter-intuitive for a strength program, I thought..
Linear Mode
