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I have always had a post work-out protein shake and eaten whole foods as my source of carbs. Recently, however I have begun to mix a combo of 50/50 dextrose/malto in my shakes as an easier and faster digesting source of carbs. But, my stomach is not reacting well, resulting in diarrhea. Obviously not great, but especially because I exercise before I go into work. I was just wondering if this is likely caused by my body not being used to so much sugar, because I do eat a pretty clean diet and slamming about 80 grams of sugar is something out of the norm for me. I had a similiar reaction when I indulged in too much candy around Easter But I am wondering if my body will get used to this? Right now I am going with a 40g of pro and 80g of fast carbs. Should I just lower the amount of quick carbs and try to work myself up? Also what are good ratios for a post workout shake for carbs and protien for bulking and then cutting. Lastly what is the most protien that I should use in my pwo shake, I weigh around 185 pounds. Thanks for any suggestions.
You got it. Shakes promote gastric emptying more than solid foods. Then once the simple sugars (dextrose=glucose, maltose= two glucoses) overwhelm the ability to absorb leaving a large amount of solute in your intestines (high osmotic pressure). All the molecules pull water into the intestines, then quickly move down the intestines. Similar events occur when people consume large amounts of sugar alcohols that can not be absorbed (splenda other sugar substitutes). If it can't be absorbed it will draw water into the intestines. Fiber works the same way, but may not be fully digested. A relatively smaller number of fiber molecules draw water into the stool in a more controlled fashion.
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To answer your amounts question...
Titrating up may give your a chance to absorb more over time. The proportion of carbohydrate you need is really based on the amount that you need during the day, or how many you can burn to maintain your goal weights. Anabolic studies have looked at a max protein/carb ratio of 2/3.
You experience is the best guide above that.
Protein absorption is interesting. The most that has a measurable anabolic effect is 20 grams per sitting. This was determined in male bodybuilders with at least 5 years lifting experience. You can absorb more, but it did not show an anabolic effect in the muscles when they sampled the muscles (muscle biopsies). They did not see how long before the next protein meal, but my inference from other studies is a 20 gram protein load every 3-4 hours maxes most individuals out.
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Protein absorption is interesting. The most that has a measurable anabolic effect is 20 grams per sitting. This was determined in male bodybuilders with at least 5 years lifting experience. You can absorb more, but it did not show an anabolic effect in the muscles when they sampled the muscles (muscle biopsies). They did not see how long before the next protein meal, but my inference from other studies is a 20 gram protein load every 3-4 hours maxes most individuals out.
Assuming most people won't get up in the middle of the night for a protein dose, you're effectively claiming that most people cannot productively consume more than 100-120g protein per day. You might wanna rethink that. Also, please link me to this study you're speaking of that found the maximal anabolic effect to be 20g. If it's the one by Moore et al involving an exercise protocol of 12 sets TOTAL, you might wanna rethink the external validity of the design.
I have always had a post work-out protein shake and eaten whole foods as my source of carbs. Recently, however I have begun to mix a combo of 50/50 dextrose/malto in my shakes as an easier and faster digesting source of carbs. But, my stomach is not reacting well, resulting in diarrhea. Obviously not great, but especially because I exercise before I go into work. I was just wondering if this is likely caused by my body not being used to so much sugar, because I do eat a pretty clean diet and slamming about 80 grams of sugar is something out of the norm for me. I had a similiar reaction when I indulged in too much candy around Easter But I am wondering if my body will get used to this? Right now I am going with a 40g of pro and 80g of fast carbs. Should I just lower the amount of quick carbs and try to work myself up? Also what are good ratios for a post workout shake for carbs and protien for bulking and then cutting. Lastly what is the most protien that I should use in my pwo shake, I weigh around 185 pounds. Thanks for any suggestions.
Unless you're an endurance athlete with more than one glycogen-depleting race in a day, you don't need dex/malto postworkout. All that does is lower the quality of your diet by hiking up your intake of empty-calorie carbs.
This is the study...
Tarnopolsky and S. M Phillips D. R Moore, M. J Robinson, J. L Fry, J. E Tang, E. I Glover, S. B Wilkinson, T. Prior, M. A. Ingested protein dose response of muscle and albumin protein synthesis after resistance exercise in young men. Am. J. Clinical Nutrition, January 1, 2009; 89 (1): 161-168.
Remember that all protein ingestion studies are suspect to validity since the outcome measures are either amino acid concentration differences in the serum/muscle cell or mRNA synthesis. Neither of these may equate to actual synthesis.
Also, the study does not say ingestion is not possible. Its suggests the maximal anabolic effect in there study group.
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This is the study...
Tarnopolsky and S. M Phillips D. R Moore, M. J Robinson, J. L Fry, J. E Tang, E. I Glover, S. B Wilkinson, T. Prior, M. A. Ingested protein dose response of muscle and albumin protein synthesis after resistance exercise in young men. Am. J. Clinical Nutrition, January 1, 2009; 89 (1): 161-168.
Remember that all protein ingestion studies are suspect to validity since the outcome measures are either amino acid concentration differences in the serum/muscle cell or mRNA synthesis. Neither of these may equate to actual synthesis.
Also, the study does not say ingestion is not possible. Its suggests the maximal anabolic effect in there study group.
Yup, that's the study I was referring to. Only acute effect (as opposed to long-term) was measured using a training bout involving 12 sets total. Low external validity there; very limited realworld applicability.
Yup, that's the study I was referring to. Only acute effect (as opposed to long-term) was measured using a training bout involving 12 sets total. Low external validity there; very limited realworld applicability.
The study has limitations (only 6 subjects, the exercise amount you mentioned, the outcome measure), but I think we can agree that it is the first documented clinical trial attempting to provide an anabolic dose response to protein supplementation that goes beyond opinion.
Also, send an email to the authors with those concerns. Authors want feedback to help create better study designs in the future. Stuart Phillips is receiving the feedback for this study (phillis@mcmaster.ca). I sent one for another issue, and I wouldn't want to take credit for your point.
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I have always been under the impression that the idea of adding something with a high GI/GL with your protein in a postworkout shake was to increase insulin levels and in turn the anabolic effect, not in order to replace glycogen levels. Some info on the validity of this would be great.
I have always been under the impression that the idea of adding something with a high GI/GL with your protein in a postworkout shake was to increase insulin levels and in turn the anabolic effect, not in order to replace glycogen levels. Some info on the validity of this would be great.
Post-exercise insulin spiking has become standard practice in fitness circles because of misinterpretation of research done on fasted subjects. As a result, many people believe that unless you consume a fast-acting liquid mix of [insert the latest hyped quickie carb & protein source], you won't achieve the walloping insulin spike supposedly necessary to optimize recovery & anabolism. But here's what everyone misses: the nutrient-mediated insulin elevation required to max out net anabolism is relatively minor; it's about 2-3 times the normal basal levels of insulin (this was seen even in the midst of ample amino acid availability via continuous infusion).
To reiterate, insulin's positive effect on net protein balance is maximal with modest elevations; even less than what's seen during normal feeding. As a matter of fact, a properly placed pre-exercise meal will keep insulin sufficiently elevated even after your training bout is over. To put things into perspective, a regular solid meal can elevate insulin anywhere from 4-8 times fasting levels depending on size, and keep it elevated for a few hours. As little as 6 g of essential amino acids plus 35 g sucrose taken immediately pre-exercise can keep insulin elevated to roughly 4 times fasting levels an hour after 40-50 minutes of resistance training. What do you think insulin levels would look like with a typical preworkout meal or shake containing at least as much carbs & double the protein?
Another little-known fact is that amino acids can stimulate protein synthesis without any additional insulin output beyond that caused on their own. I'm gonna assume at this point that everyone has some protein pre & postworkout, so this is yet another reason to nix the empty-calorie refined carb & go for a more nutritious carb source whenever possible.
I'm gonna assume at this point that everyone has some protein pre & postworkout, so this is yet another reason to nix the empty-calorie refined carb & go for a more nutritious carb source whenever possible.
Hell, when I'm dieting I don't have the calories to waste on something that is in no way filling and has nothing more to offer than "protein" and "sugar" and if I really want something baad, a good choc milk is more filling anyway (and oh sooo tasteee).
I usually saw worse results from having a shake because it was just an extra couple hundred calories with no satiety and I still had to eat something substantial shortly after workout anyway. It just erased my deficit.
Six subjects per group is not much of a concern as their method provides relatively low variability and provides adequate statistical power from that number (the joy of crossover trials)
12 sets of exercise for the legs with teh aim of eliciting failure within 8-10 reps with 2minutes between sets is reasonably representative of a single training session. I know I go nowhere near 12 sets, let alone 12 sets to failure.
Other work out of Stuarts lab shows have shown that his acute results feed out into the chronic setting as well, as he had earlier predicted with chronic resistance training being the accumulation of individual sessions.
Interestingly enough, the dosage that achieved the peak muscle FSR is pretty much inline with earlier work that measured peak rates of protein synthesis at rest with administration of essential amino acids (which work backwards to a dose of WPI around 18grams - for the same weight)
But protein synthesis is only one endpoint to measure...
I've been wondering if I'm getting too much carbs around my workouts lately as I've been reading up on how amino acids can increase protein synthesis by themselves and all that. Now I usually eat a meal about 1-2 hours before I start training. While I train I take a 50/50g malto/protein shake and after I take a 60/50g shake.
I train for a long time, though.. I do an upper lower split, takes about 2 hours each time. I'm trying a huge volume thingy. I've noticed that drinking the peri workout shake allows me to go on for longer without wanting to fall asleep.
As for PWO carbs, is their only use glycogen replenishment? Training each bodypart 2 times a week, I guess I'd have plenty of time to replenish my glycogen stores in between sessions for the same muscles without the PWO shake. I've also heard that insulin lowers GH, and I've heart arguments that you shouldn't have carbs PWO for this reason. though this sounds a bit weird, since then you'd have to stay away from anything insulin spiking forever just to keep GH levels from falling. What's your take on this, Alan, or anyone else?
I wondered about making a new thread, but figured I'd just put it here since it falls in with the discussion about whether carbs are useful PWO.. Just let me know if I should make a new thread. Don't want to hijack.
Six subjects per group is not much of a concern as their method provides relatively low variability and provides adequate statistical power from that number (the joy of crossover trials)
12 sets of exercise for the legs with teh aim of eliciting failure within 8-10 reps with 2minutes between sets is reasonably representative of a single training session. I know I go nowhere near 12 sets, let alone 12 sets to failure.
Yeah, but that's fine for a 30-minute training session involving the legs. I'm wondering what sort of extra demand a training bout with double that volume would impose, given the common practice of training more than one muscle group in a single session, and to what degree that extra demand might raise the ceiling of protein synthesis using a higher dose. Regardless of that speculation, my main issue here is with the authors' implication of a maximally effective protein dose of 100-120g/day (20g administered 5-6x a day).
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Interestingly enough, the dosage that achieved the peak muscle FSR is pretty much inline with earlier work that measured peak rates of protein synthesis at rest with administration of essential amino acids (which work backwards to a dose of WPI around 18grams - for the same weight)
I'm assuming you're talking about this trial (correct me if I'm wrong):
From the text: "Subjects had not participated in a resistance exercise training program for >1 yr before participating in the study and were instructed not to change their activity patterns for the duration of the study."
And again, the training protocol was pretty minimal in terms of total work, which was 9 sets for the legs, done in less than 30 minutes.
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But protein synthesis is only one endpoint to measure...
Agreed completely. I'd love to see this type of work carried out long-term using higher-volume training session involving more than a single muscle group. Aaron, serious Q here, what would you like to see in terms of design improvement with this particular line of investigation?
I've been wondering if I'm getting too much carbs around my workouts lately as I've been reading up on how amino acids can increase protein synthesis by themselves and all that. Now I usually eat a meal about 1-2 hours before I start training. While I train I take a 50/50g malto/protein shake and after I take a 60/50g shake.
I train for a long time, though.. I do an upper lower split, takes about 2 hours each time. I'm trying a huge volume thingy. I've noticed that drinking the peri workout shake allows me to go on for longer without wanting to fall asleep.
As for PWO carbs, is their only use glycogen replenishment? Training each bodypart 2 times a week, I guess I'd have plenty of time to replenish my glycogen stores in between sessions for the same muscles without the PWO shake. I've also heard that insulin lowers GH, and I've heart arguments that you shouldn't have carbs PWO for this reason. though this sounds a bit weird, since then you'd have to stay away from anything insulin spiking forever just to keep GH levels from falling. What's your take on this, Alan, or anyone else?
I wondered about making a new thread, but figured I'd just put it here since it falls in with the discussion about whether carbs are useful PWO.. Just let me know if I should make a new thread. Don't want to hijack.
Getting too much carbs around training can only hurt if it contributes to an excess of carbs beyond what you're shooting for in total for the day. As for insulin lowering GH, that's a misguided concern. Starvation & sleep deprivation can raise GH too, but they don't do a whole lot for the goals you're likely pursuing.
Yeah, but that's fine for a 30-minute training session involving the legs. I'm wondering what sort of extra demand a training bout with double that volume would impose, given the common practice of training more than one muscle group in a single session, and to what degree that extra demand might raise the ceiling of protein synthesis using a higher dose.
If we compare the effect of EAA with no exercise, and Protien after exercise, the amount to stimulate maximal muscle protein synthesis appears pretty much the same.
But, doing more bodyparts at the same time may influence the tissue uptake of amino acids, which would require a larger dose. But its neither here or there in the bigger picture.
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Regardless of that speculation, my main issue here is with the authors' implication of a maximally effective protein dose of 100-120g/day (20g administered 5-6x a day). I'm assuming you're talking about this trial (correct me if I'm wrong):
From the text: "Subjects had not participated in a resistance exercise training program for >1 yr before participating in the study and were instructed not to change their activity patterns for the duration of the study."
Your(sic) wrong
There are three main studies that have looked at dose/response as the main endpoint. The one I was mentioning was the first of htese.
One used IV amino acids
One used Free form amino acids
One used isolated egg protein
Human muscle protein synthesis is modulated by extracellular, not intramuscular amino acid availability: a dose-response study.
Bohé J, Low A, Wolfe RR, Rennie MJ.
Division of Metabolism, Department of Surgery, University of Texas Medical Branch, Shriners Burns Hospital, Galveston, TX 77550, USA.
To test the hypothesis that muscle protein synthesis (MPS) is regulated by the concentration of extracellular amino acids, we investigated the dose-response relationship between the rate of human MPS and the concentrations of blood and intramuscular amino acids. We increased blood mixed amino acid concentrations by up to 240 % above basal levels by infusion of mixed amino acids (Aminosyn 15, 44-261 mg kg-1 h-1) in 21 healthy subjects, (11 men 10 women, aged 29 +/- 2 years) and measured the rate of incorporation of D5-phenylalanine or D3-leucine into muscle protein and blood and intramuscular amino acid concentrations. The relationship between the fold increase in MPS and blood essential amino acid concentration ([EAA], mM) was hyperbolic and fitted the equation MPS = (2.68 x [EAA])/(1.51 + [EAA]) (P < 0.01). The pattern of stimulation of myofibrillar, sarcoplasmic and mitochondrial protein was similar. There was no clear relationship between the rate of MPS and the concentration of intramuscular EAAs; indeed, when MPS was increasing most rapidly, the concentration of intramuscular EAAs was below basal levels. We conclude that the rates of synthesis of all classes of muscle proteins are acutely regulated by the blood [EAA] over their normal diurnal range, but become saturated at high concentrations. We propose that the stimulation of protein synthesis depends on the sensing of the concentration of extracellular, rather than intramuscular EAAs.
Cuthbertson D, Smith K, Babraj J, Leese G, Waddell T, Atherton P, Wackerhage H, Taylor PM, Rennie MJ.
Division of Molecular Physiology, School of Life Sciences, University of Dundee, Dundee, Scotland.
The nature of the deficit underlying age-related muscle wasting remains controversial. To test whether it could be due to a poor anabolic response to dietary amino acids, we measured the rates of myofibrillar and sarcoplasmic muscle protein synthesis (MPS) in 44 healthy young and old men, of similar body build, after ingesting different amounts of essential amino acids (EAA). Basal rates of MPS were indistinguishable, but the elderly showed less anabolic sensitivity and responsiveness of MPS to EAA, possibly due to decreased intramuscular expression, and activation (phosphorylation) after EAA, of amino acid sensing/signaling proteins (mammalian target of rapamycin, mTOR; p70 S6 kinase, or p70(S6k); eukaryotic initiation factor [eIF]4BP-1; and eIF2B). The effects were independent of insulin signaling since plasma insulin was clamped at basal values. Associated with the anabolic deficits were marked increases in NFkappaB, the inflammation-associated transcription factor. These results demonstrate first, EAA stimulate MPS independently of increased insulin availability; second, in the elderly, a deficit in MPS in the basal state is unlikely; and third, the decreased sensitivity and responsiveness of MPS to EAA, associated with decrements in the expression and activation of components of anabolic signaling pathways, are probably major contributors to the failure of muscle maintenance in the elderly. Countermeasures to maximize muscle maintenance should target these deficits.
Ingested protein dose response of muscle and albumin protein synthesis after resistance exercise in young men.
Moore DR, Robinson MJ, Fry JL, Tang JE, Glover EI, Wilkinson SB, Prior T, Tarnopolsky MA, Phillips SM.
Exercise Metabolism Research Group, Department of Kinesiology, McMaster University, Hamilton, Canada.
BACKGROUND: The anabolic effect of resistance exercise is enhanced by the provision of dietary protein. OBJECTIVES: We aimed to determine the ingested protein dose response of muscle (MPS) and albumin protein synthesis (APS) after resistance exercise. In addition, we measured the phosphorylation of candidate signaling proteins thought to regulate acute changes in MPS. DESIGN: Six healthy young men reported to the laboratory on 5 separate occasions to perform an intense bout of leg-based resistance exercise. After exercise, participants consumed, in a randomized order, drinks containing 0, 5, 10, 20, or 40 g whole egg protein. Protein synthesis and whole-body leucine oxidation were measured over 4 h after exercise by a primed constant infusion of [1-(13)C]leucine. RESULTS: MPS displayed a dose response to dietary protein ingestion and was maximally stimulated at 20 g. The phosphorylation of ribosomal protein S6 kinase (Thr(389)), ribosomal protein S6 (Ser(240/244)), and the epsilon-subunit of eukaryotic initiation factor 2B (Ser(539)) were unaffected by protein ingestion. APS increased in a dose-dependent manner and also reached a plateau at 20 g ingested protein. Leucine oxidation was significantly increased after 20 and 40 g protein were ingested. CONCLUSIONS: Ingestion of 20 g intact protein is sufficient to maximally stimulate MPS and APS after resistance exercise. Phosphorylation of candidate signaling proteins was not enhanced with any dose of protein ingested, which suggested that the stimulation of MPS after resistance exercise may be related to amino acid availability. Finally, dietary protein consumed after exercise in excess of the rate at which it can be incorporated into tissue protein stimulates irreversible oxidation
All three appear to show pretty much the same thing in young people (oldies are in trouble no matter which way you put it), rested or following resistance exercise. ~20-25g of a decent protein to maximise the muscle protein synthesis.
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And again, the training protocol was pretty minimal in terms of total work, which was 9 sets for the legs, done in less than 30 minutes.
You would never beable to worship the corpse of Authur Jones with that attitude.
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Agreed completely. I'd love to see this type of work carried out long-term using higher-volume training session involving more than a single muscle group. Aaron, serious Q here, what would you like to see in terms of design improvement with this particular line of investigation?
Sirious?
Personally, there is a ton of stuff I would like being measured.
A decent dose/response curve for the effect of carbohydrates on muscle protein balance
A decent combination dose repsonse curve for protein+carbohydrate
Tightly controlled chronic feeding studies, as there is more to protein than just MPS.
Just wanted to note that I reduced the amount of malto/dextrose in my shakes and after a couple days was no longer having any problems with my stomach. I have since upped the grams to where I want and it works great. Plan on cutting out the carbs in my PWO when I am trying to drop my bf% back down though.
Thanks for that, Aaron. You are a particularly astute brand of bro.
You know you're one of my top bros, bro, because you got my back. And I got yours. You're my bro. But you went above and beyond the other night, bromaldehyde. You really did. Saving me that seat at the Velvet Revolver show, even though all those other bros were trying to get up front, bro? So clutch.
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Brody, I was so stoked when you told Gina to go eat a fat one after she asked if she could have your other ticket, even though you knew you could probably get a pretty deese HJ from her. Bros before hos, bro. That's what I'm talking about.
You are the king of all bros. Brotankhamen. You are the Ayatollah Bromeini. You are Broseidon, lord of the brocean.
But this is just one of many times you've fallen on a grenade for me, brozo. Who took the blame when I broke Skeeter's bong and fucking Skeeter was all fucking pissed? You, bro. Who was the first to bro up and carry that fucking keg of Killian's up four flights of stairs for Duke's surprise party? You, bro. Who was the only Bromo sapien on the planet to tell me he thought the brand-new rims on my F-350 were the shit even though everyone else was all, like, fucking not that excited about them? Bro, you know it was you. You're my broheim supremo, bro, and don't you ever forget it.
I'm so fucking glad we're bros, bro!
I've long admired your absolute broficiency in all things bro-related, and the way you've always carried yourself in a brofessional manner. I consider you a brole model. When I was new in this town, you took me under your wing and showed me the bropes. And I will always preesh that. Not only did you school me in proper brotocol, but you were a spiritual leader, a confidant, and, more importantly, a bro. You taught me how to be true to my inner bro and to bros around me. You are a real bro. Not a fake bro, like those other douches. I hate fake bros, bro. Faux breaux. Fuck that. No, really, bro…you're practically a bro-ther to me.
Look at you, blasting in like Rambro and firing off your launcher like nobrody's business, bro. Serious Brotosaurus Rex action. Brodius Maximus. I'm not big on labels, but you, more than any of the wiggers, bitches, goth chicks, dorks, homos, or Mexicans I know, are absolutely beyond rebroach.
In fact, your brotitude is so brossential that, in many ways, you are the ultimate brototype: You sprung out of the brotean ooze at the very broment of creation, unformed, unmolded, and became the ultimate bro, more powerful than any who came brofore. I don't fear your power, bro, but I respect it. And I will always brobey it.
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Like Broseph Stalin, you are leading the way to the dictatorship of the broletariate. It is truly revbrolutionary. Like the Bro v. Wade of our generation. You brobliterate the enemy from the very peak of Mt. Brolympus. That's some shit. That's brolific. But that's the kind of bro you are.
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You are the epitome of bro, in every brossible way, and that's the Bro's honest truth, bro. I may have a bropensity for broverstatement, but this no mere hyperbrole: You are 100 brocent, absbrolutely the broest. Brotally.
Bad reaction to dextrose and malto
But I am wondering if my body will get used to this? Right now I am going with a 40g of pro and 80g of fast carbs. Should I just lower the amount of quick carbs and try to work myself up? Also what are good ratios for a post workout shake for carbs and protien for bulking and then cutting. Lastly what is the most protien that I should use in my pwo shake, I weigh around 185 pounds. Thanks for any suggestions.
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