Diet, Nutrition and SupplementationPost here for supplement reviews or nutritional advice. If you're trying to get "ripped abz" THIS is where you should be.
I know that there's plenty of research showing the importance of pre- and post-workout protein. I also know that many of those studies look at subjects in a fasted state.
So is there any research on the impact of pre-/post-workout supplementation in people who are already eating snacks or meals within a few hours pre and post-workout? I would expect an incremental increase in anabolism and decrease in catabolism with immediate supplementation, but I would think this effect would be MUCH less significant than is seen in studies that use control groups in a fasted state.
I'm curious about any research, and also about the opinions of the experts around here.
On weekdays, I normally eat a snack about an hour before my workout and eat dinner 30 minutes to an hour after my workout. Therefore, I don't worry much about immediate pre/post-workout supplementation. Maybe if I drank 40g of SURGE! immediately before and after my workout I would be HYOOOGE!
I know that there's plenty of research showing the importance of pre- and post-workout protein. I also know that many of those studies look at subjects in a fasted state.
So is there any research on the impact of pre-/post-workout supplementation in people who are already eating snacks or meals within a few hours pre and post-workout? I would expect an incremental increase in anabolism and decrease in catabolism with immediate supplementation, but I would think this effect would be MUCH less significant than is seen in studies that use control groups in a fasted state.
I'm curious about any research, and also about the opinions of the experts around here.
On weekdays, I normally eat a snack about an hour before my workout and eat dinner 30 minutes to an hour after my workout. Therefore, I don't worry much about immediate pre/post-workout supplementation. Maybe if I drank 40g of SURGE! immediately before and after my workout I would be HYOOOGE!
There's no research showing the benefit of additional substrates taken in the pre or postworkout period if you're not training in a fasted or semi-fasted state. The answers to your concerns can be goal-dependent, however. What are you trying to accomplish?
There's no research showing the benefit of additional substrates taken in the pre or postworkout period if you're not training in a fasted or semi-fasted state. The answers to your concerns can be goal-dependent, however. What are you trying to accomplish?
At the moment, my own goals are performance-oriented, not specific to size or body composition. I'm trying to maintain (or slightly improve) strength and power while I improve conditioning/endurance for grappling and MMA. (I'm around 185# and pretty lean -- I usually cut down to 170 for weightlifting meets, so I'll probably do the same for martial arts competitions.)
I'm mostly curious about the research and expert opinions on this issue(a) just for the sake of improving my own understanding, and (b) because I will have different training goals in the future, and this information might be relevant to those goals.
Another question -- in the research, what exactly constitutes fasted or semi-fasted? How many hours of fasting do these terms actually refer to?
From what I have read in your other posts, I assume you still recommend some pre and post-workout supplementation, even if a trainee is eating regularly throughout the day. (I don't know any sports nutrition authority that DOESN'T recommend that.) Given that there's not really any research behind this, could you explain that recommendation? (I'm not being argumentative or playing devil's advocate; I'd just like to understand the rationale.) How would you adjust your recommendation for different goals (bulking, cutting, strength and power training, conditioning and endurance training, etc.)?
That's a lot of questions for one post. Thanks for your input!
At the moment, my own goals are performance-oriented, not specific to size or body composition. I'm trying to maintain (or slightly improve) strength and power while I improve conditioning/endurance for grappling and MMA. (I'm around 185# and pretty lean -- I usually cut down to 170 for weightlifting meets, so I'll probably do the same for martial arts competitions.)
I'm mostly curious about the research and expert opinions on this issue(a) just for the sake of improving my own understanding, and (b) because I will have different training goals in the future, and this information might be relevant to those goals.
Another question -- in the research, what exactly constitutes fasted or semi-fasted? How many hours of fasting do these terms actually refer to?
From what I have read in your other posts, I assume you still recommend some pre and post-workout supplementation, even if a trainee is eating regularly throughout the day. (I don't know any sports nutrition authority that DOESN'T recommend that.) Given that there's not really any research behind this, could you explain that recommendation? (I'm not being argumentative or playing devil's advocate; I'd just like to understand the rationale.) How would you adjust your recommendation for different goals (bulking, cutting, strength and power training, conditioning and endurance training, etc.)?
That's a lot of questions for one post. Thanks for your input!
I rarely tell people this straight-out, but you need to subscribe to my research review (see link in siggy). I go over this stuff exhaustively, and you seem to be quite interested in the technical & theoreticel aspects in order to put the minutia to practice. The answers to your questions can't necessarily be put into a nutshell, but here's my 2 cents: Pre & postworkout "supplementation" is not necessary unless you're completely fasted (8-12 hours of nothing, as in after a full night's sleep) or semi-fasted (4-6 hours of no intake). If your training sessions exceed 90 minutes of continuous endurance-type training, and performance is the primary objective, 8-15g protein (or 4-8g EAA) plus 30-60g CHO per hour is the ballpark range of what should be ingested. If your training sessions are the typical 45-60 minute duration, then a solid mixed meal (or shake) within an hour pre & and an hour postworkout will suffice. Nitpicking over exact amounts and timing is a distant secondary concern compared to hitting your macronutrient targets for the day - whatever your goal may be (cutting, bulking, maintenance, etc). Competitive endurance athletes with multiple glycogen-depleting bouts in a day may need to concern themselves with the speed of glycogen resynthesis between events, all other populations don't need to.
I read the first few issues of the Reasearch Review, I am duly impressed. There's a lot of great information in there.
The study linked above (which Alan cited in AARR #2) seems to be the only one that addresses my question directly, and I found it to be a very interesting read.
I read the first few issues of the Reasearch Review, I am duly impressed. There's a lot of great information in there.
The study linked above (which Alan cited in AARR #2) seems to be the only one that addresses my question directly, and I found it to be a very interesting read.
Glad you like AARR, Tom. As for the Cribb study, I agree that it's an interesting trial, and it's one of the rare bits of evidence showing the impact of timing on bodycomp/strength over a chronic period. Of course, no study is perfect, and my main issue with this one was its lack of double-blinding. It would have been a relatively simple procedure to create placebo treatments for the non-immediately supped group, and this also would have normalized the the peri-training hydration status of the groups as well (another potential advantage of the imediately-supped group). Also, some given that training occured sometime between 3pm & 6pm without any specification of meal times or macronutrient distributions per meal inttrduces considerable variability of the 'fed' status of the subjects.
I have wondered this as well. I eat a good real food snack (Greek yogurt, fruit) about 1-1.5 hours before workout and have dinner about 30 minutes after so don't do the supplement route but wondered if a protein shake could be beneficial. So this artilce was interesting but then I see the lead author of the study is a consultant to AST Sports Science which makes supplements and always wonder how objective can these findings be?
I have wondered this as well. I eat a good real food snack (Greek yogurt, fruit) about 1-1.5 hours before workout and have dinner about 30 minutes after so don't do the supplement route but wondered if a protein shake could be beneficial. So this artilce was interesting but then I see the lead author of the study is a consultant to AST Sports Science which makes supplements and always wonder how objective can these findings be?
I typically give Cribb studies a bunch of shit for investigator alliance bias (which is especially strong in AST's case). But this was more of a timing study rather than a comparison of different agents. So it doesn't necessarily lend itself to the same level of criticism as the AST VP2 vs casein study.
I would agree with Alan for the most part (and I co-own a supplement company). A lot of the research used to back supplements relies on studies in the fasted state. A meal with a reasonable amount of fat can take several hours just to clear your stomach... The point being that blood levels of sugar, protein etc. are already pretty high for most people when they are training thus precluding the "need" for a pre-workout shake etc.
Now, what I will say about supplementation is that a good shake makes getting your nutrients easy, and a liquid form will get into your system a touch more quickly in general, so shakes can be both convenient and effective.
PWO Protein - Question for the nutrition gurus
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