Diet, Nutrition and SupplementationPost here for supplement reviews or nutritional advice. If you're trying to get "ripped abz" THIS is where you should be.
I was wondering what you guys think about BCAA supplementation and creatine supplementation. I am a 27 yr old female who lifts on a regular basis. Im currently doing NROL4W. I've read that BCAA supplementation aids against muscle catabolism and helps build lean body mass. Which is what I want since my ultimate goal is fat loss and a lean body. But is there any benefit to taking BCAA's over creatine? I've read so many mixed reviews I dont know whether I should try BCAA's or creatine or both or neither! Currently my supplements are a multi, fish oil, whey powder, and glutamine (which I take before and after a workout or before bed on non workout days). Any input appreciated
Most here will say BCAAs are a waste of money. You get plenty from food and your protein shakes.
Creatine is a different thing entirely. It has been studied extensively for years and it does work. I also don't think anyone has found any real negative side effects from using it (dehydration from not drinking enough water?).
Personally, I use whey, fish oil, and creatine and have been for years.
__________________
"Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go." -- T.S. Eliot
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit."-- Aristotle
Ya know - I'm gonna buy a copy of Alan's book. Im not sure why, to now, I haven't. He just makes ya feel smarter by reading his posts. Not to mention I end up keeping more of my hard earned coin in my pocket. Yeah for creatine!!!!!!! - and boo for supping BCAA's - I was doing that...ugggh
__________________ "Do the thing and you shall have the power"
Ya know - I'm gonna buy a copy of Alan's book. Im not sure why, to now, I haven't. He just makes ya feel smarter by reading his posts. Not to mention I end up keeping more of my hard earned coin in my pocket. Yeah for creatine!!!!!!! - and boo for supping BCAA's - I was doing that...ugggh
I use his Girth Control book like an encyclopedia. I'm constantly looking different information up in there for comparisons. It is amazing book and well worth the money.
Plus, if you're a guy and you read it in a public place...there is a very good chance that the title of the book will attract some attention from the ladies, if you know what I mean.
I'm on board with the creatine, but nay on the BCAAs and glutamine because a good protein powder should already have those in it, and that makes things much simpler, and I like simple. Creatine, fish oil, whey protein, and the rest is handled with diet....eggs, milk, lean meats, whole fruits and veggies, nuts, seeds. And again I must say that I think supplementation amounts to a very small part of your success, it is the work you put in that is going to matter most. Having said that, if I going to take creatine, then I damn well better be dedicated and work hard and earn it. So do I credit my improvements to creatine, or to the fact that I was dedicated and worked hard? I think more that latter, and that is the biggest benefit of supplementation.
__________________
"If it's a penny for your thoughts and you put in your two cents worth, then someone, somewhere is making a penny." — Steven Wright
Plus, if you're a guy and you read it in a public place...there is a very good chance that the title of the book will attract some attention from the ladies, if you know what I mean.
Wow - never thought of that. Of course I'm good with the attention I get......
As far as the creatine goes - I stick with that stuff. It seems to facilitate the opportunity to work harder - and that's something I really like. I have noticed a difference between the on and off cycles of creatine.
__________________ "Do the thing and you shall have the power"
I am wanting to know what any of you think about high school athletes taking creatine. I work with male athletes and I do know some are taking it. There are other teenagers who have asked me about taking it as well. I have always thought it not to be a good idea at that age, that they should be getting everything they need from a balanced diet. If yes/no what would you recommend as far as brand, type etc.
hi i was just surfing the net for a better way to design my post workout supp's when i came across this thread
and i have to say i was completely "shocked" by the confidence in which people can write off BCaa's use especially based on logic that hey the bcaa's are in whey protein as well so we don't need to supplement them.....have you knocking them ever tried them (in dosages say 15 grame....before plus after workouts)?
say has any ever taken a couple free form amino's individually instead of having to digest them from a protein such as a powder or even say a chicken breast, salmon, etc.....the reason i say this is because if someone were to supplement with say plain L-tryptophan they would likely raise serotonin levels and become a bit more calm....or say high levels of L-tyrosine and gain focus.........but yet when the same amount or more could be found in food protein sources which undergo a longer and more indirect (to muscle) digestive process the effects are non-existant.......ok now regardless of this metaphor
i now take a basic Bcaa powder supp....with creatine and dextrose post workout and Bcaa's and gatorade during workout........since i added Bcaa's i have noticed considerably LESS DOMS.....no queston.........in case you are wondering i take 15-20 grams of bcaa's (usually on the way to the gym and during the workout i sip my gatorade-bcaa mix) and when i finish i drink a dextrose -bcaa-whey protein-creatine mix)...i had been taking the creatine/dextrose/whey for years and added the Bcaa's about 9 months ago
the difference from BCaa's is noticeable... less soreness (not to mention about a five pound weight gain in the first 8 weeks of supp. with them) without altering my diet (i was at 188 for months then 193 ......i hope i didn't ruffle any feathers just trying to post a alternative opinon with a experience to back it up......i.e ..........i have good intentions
hi i was just surfing the net for a better way to design my post workout supp's when i came across this thread
and i have to say i was completely "shocked" by the confidence in which people can write off BCaa's use especially based on logic that hey the bcaa's are in whey protein as well so we don't need to supplement them.....have you knocking them ever tried them (in dosages say 15 grame....before plus after workouts)?
say has any ever taken a couple free form amino's individually instead of having to digest them from a protein such as a powder or even say a chicken breast, salmon, etc.....the reason i say this is because if someone were to supplement with say plain L-tryptophan they would likely raise serotonin levels and become a bit more calm....or say high levels of L-tyrosine and gain focus.........but yet when the same amount or more could be found in food protein sources which undergo a longer and more indirect (to muscle) digestive process the effects are non-existant.......ok now regardless of this metaphor
i now take a basic Bcaa powder supp....with creatine and dextrose post workout and Bcaa's and gatorade during workout........since i added Bcaa's i have noticed considerably LESS DOMS.....no queston.........in case you are wondering i take 15-20 grams of bcaa's (usually on the way to the gym and during the workout i sip my gatorade-bcaa mix) and when i finish i drink a dextrose -bcaa-whey protein-creatine mix)...i had been taking the creatine/dextrose/whey for years and added the Bcaa's about 9 months ago
the difference from BCaa's is noticeable... less soreness (not to mention about a five pound weight gain in the first 8 weeks of supp. with them) without altering my diet (i was at 188 for months then 193 ......i hope i didn't ruffle any feathers just trying to post a alternative opinon with a experience to back it up......i.e ..........i have good intentions
cheers
I have considerably LESS DOMS since dumping my BCAA supplementation. I can also buy more toys for my kids.
I think you should look a up a little thing called expectation bias, and how it causes awesome results. Reduction of of DOMS is definitely not out of the question when it comes to cognitive priming.
i'm sure anyone could think of anything they are willing to believe to re-inforce a beleif system and for you "expectation bias" fits the bill......
the funny thing is i was Skeptical they would really do anything....b/c i had always seen them in the stores and thought what the heck do i need that crap for.... i had done some reasearch where there seemed to be a group that didn't try them and said why would i need that....and those that used and like them...and even some who didn't really think they worked that great...vs. some study's that showed they increased anti-catabolic properties (older italian study) and basically i said you know what......you have a few extra $.....give it a try.....have a kick ass workout....don't go low on the volume ....and pound the muscle hard....i certainly didn't start using Bcaa's thinking they would be effective like creatine
so while i don't live in a world of absolute's i can tell you with what i believe is very rationale judgement these things (BCaa's) work especially when taking 15-20 grams during pre and post workout window....i would just say to you that while i don't believe i had expectation bias....perhaps you did......again i am just trying to give background on my opinion......it appears you have a strong opinion against their effectiveness.......i'm ok with that....i just want other's to hear both sides and form their own opinion as well......
i'm sure anyone could think of anything they are willing to believe to re-inforce a beleif system and for you "expectation bias" fits the bill......
the funny thing is i was Skeptical they would really do anything....b/c i had always seen them in the stores and thought what the heck do i need that crap for.... i had done some reasearch where there seemed to be a group that didn't try them and said why would i need that....and those that used and like them...and even some who didn't really think they worked that great...vs. some study's that showed they increased anti-catabolic properties (older italian study) and basically i said you know what......you have a few extra $.....give it a try.....have a kick ass workout....don't go low on the volume ....and pound the muscle hard....i certainly didn't start using Bcaa's thinking they would be effective like creatine
so while i don't live in a world of absolute's i can tell you with what i believe is very rationale judgement these things (BCaa's) work especially when taking 15-20 grams during pre and post workout window....i would just say to you that while i don't believe i had expectation bias....perhaps you did......again i am just trying to give background on my opinion......it appears you have a strong opinion against their effectiveness.......i'm ok with that....i just want other's to hear both sides and form their own opinion as well......
cheers
Hopes and dreams can be good things. Don't let me discourage you from hoping, dreaming, wishing, and imagining. When you wish upon a star, makes no difference who you are. Anything your heart desires will come to you.
Hopes and dreams can be good things. Don't let me discourage you from hoping, dreaming, wishing, and imagining. When you wish upon a star, makes no difference who you are. Anything your heart desires will come to you.
thanks lol
don't let me discourage you from thinking.....believing.....and holding on to a idea that anyone who gets results from something you didn't (or don't believe others should) is all in their head
cheers
p.s from the bcaa debunking thread....it seems the fat lady is not singing
"The claims that BCAAs reduce protein breakdown were initially based on early in vitro studies, which showed that adding BCAAs to an incubation or perfusion medium stimulated tissue protein synthesis and inhibited protein degradation. Several in vivo studies in healthy individuals (11–13) failed to confirm the positive effect on protein balance that had been observed in vitro. However, several studies in recent years have inferred an anabolic effect of leucine or the BCAAs on muscle protein breakdown and a stimulatory effect on muscle protein synthesis [see the article by Dwight Matthews (14) in this supplement for a review]. Very recent work suggests that leucine itself, not its metabolites, acts as a signal to stimulate protein synthesis (15). Furthermore, it has just been reported that coingestion of protein and leucine with carbohydrate stimulates muscle protein synthesis and optimizes whole-body protein balance when compared with the intake of carbohydrate only after a 45-min bout of resistance exercise (16). Thus, evidence is accumulating now that supports the commercial claims that orally ingested BCAAs have an anticatabolic effect during and after exercise. It is possible that BCAA supplements could also accelerate the repair of muscle damage after exercise, though evidence for this is not yet available (10).
don't let me discourage you from thinking.....believing.....and holding on to a idea that anyone who gets results from something you didn't (or don't believe others should) is all in their head
cheers
p.s from the bcaa debunking thread....it seems the fat lady is not singing
"The claims that BCAAs reduce protein breakdown were initially based on early in vitro studies, which showed that adding BCAAs to an incubation or perfusion medium stimulated tissue protein synthesis and inhibited protein degradation. Several in vivo studies in healthy individuals (11–13) failed to confirm the positive effect on protein balance that had been observed in vitro. However, several studies in recent years have inferred an anabolic effect of leucine or the BCAAs on muscle protein breakdown and a stimulatory effect on muscle protein synthesis [see the article by Dwight Matthews (14) in this supplement for a review]. Very recent work suggests that leucine itself, not its metabolites, acts as a signal to stimulate protein synthesis (15). Furthermore, it has just been reported that coingestion of protein and leucine with carbohydrate stimulates muscle protein synthesis and optimizes whole-body protein balance when compared with the intake of carbohydrate only after a 45-min bout of resistance exercise (16). Thus, evidence is accumulating now that supports the commercial claims that orally ingested BCAAs have an anticatabolic effect during and after exercise. It is possible that BCAA supplements could also accelerate the repair of muscle damage after exercise, though evidence for this is not yet available (10).
4 more sections down right before the final section in the same paper:
"Despite the lack of strong evidence for the efficacy of BCAA supplements, athletes continue to use them. However, normal food alternatives are available and are almost certainly cheaper. For example, a typical BCAA supplement sold in tablet form contains 100 mg valine, 50 mg isoleucine, and 100 mg leucine. A chicken breast (100 g) contains 470 mg valine, 375 g isoleucine, and 656 mg leucine, the equivalent of about 7 BCAA tablets. One quarter of a cup of peanuts (60 g) contains even more BCAA and is equivalent to 11 tablets."
When you wish upon a star... Makes no difference who you aaaare
"For example, a typical BCAA supplement sold in tablet form contains 100 mg valine, 50 mg isoleucine, and 100 mg leucine. A chicken breast (100 g) contains 470 mg valine, 375 g isoleucine, and 656 mg leucine, the equivalent of about 7 BCAA tablets. One quarter of a cup of peanuts (60 g) contains even more BCAA and is equivalent to 11 tablets."
When you wish upon a star... Makes no difference who you aaaare [/quote]
i'm not sure if this passes the sniff test for the majority but
"A typical BCAA supplemnt sold in tablet form contains 100mg of leucine"
lofl..........does the person doing the study realize that most people talking about the benefits of bcaa supplmentation are saying to take ....oh i dunno........50x more than 100mg i.e 5 grams (L-Leucine) at Minimum
remember i'm talking about taking between 15 and 20 grams of BCAA during my preworkout to post workout training (about 2 hours) which = 7500 mg to 10,000 mg of leucine
either way most tablets also contain a Heck of a lot more than 100 mg of leucine........usually tab are 2:1:1 with 500mg of leucine..... most go with the powder anyway.
i would think this would be a quite obvious flaw in their reasoning but who cares when it supports a beleif you hold ...hey
lofl..........does the person doing the study realize that most people talking about the benefits of bcaa supplmentation are saying to take ....oh i dunno........50x more than 100mg i.e 5 grams (L-Leucine) at Minimum
remember i'm talking about taking between 15 and 20 grams of BCAA during my preworkout to post workout training (about 2 hours) which = 7500 mg to 10,000 mg of leucine
Looks like you might have a case of more-is-better-itis, my friend. A maximal anabolic response per meal can be elicited by about 3-4 grams of leucine. And, according Donald Layman (one of the most prolific leucine researchers alive), muscle protein synthesis is stimulated maximally with an oral leucine dose of 0.045-0.06g/kg (3-4g). This amount is easy to achieve from typical food sources, such as 6oz lean meat, fish, & poultry, or 1 cup cottage cheese, or 2 scoops of whey. My question to you now is, are you a vegan who wants to be the most jacked vegan possible? If not, are you on a low-protein diet? If you say yes to either, I can understand the need to supplement the diet with leucine (or the rest of the EAAs for that matter).
Looks like you might have a case of more-is-better-itis, my friend. A maximal anabolic response per meal can be elicited by about 3-4 grams of leucine. And, according Donald Layman (one of the most prolific leucine researchers alive), muscle protein synthesis is stimulated maximally with an oral leucine dose of 0.045-0.06g/kg (3-4g). This amount is easy to achieve from typical food sources, such as 6oz lean meat, fish, & poultry, or 1 cup cottage cheese, or 2 scoops of whey. My question to you now is, are you a vegan who wants to be the most jacked vegan possible? If not, are you on a low-protein diet? If you say yes to either, I can understand the need to supplement the diet with leucine (or the rest of the EAAs for that matter).
In any case...
Nice vid.....i'm growing just from the inspiration
Fortunately i'm not a vegan i just like to be able to replenish BCAA's as fast as possible to prevent catabolic effects associated with working out............
which can replenish BCAA's faster during a workout (and minimize the catabolic effect of training)......Free form BCAA's taken prior, during , and just post workout
or waiting for the gradual breakdown of competing amino acids in the gut from a chicken breast........?
let me guess you will respond with a disney video.....i like i like
Why does it matter how fast after, when you still have them floating around from before?
my thought process (assuming you are asking why i would also consume them post workout)
is that the insulin spike the BCAA's can provide (which the spike is not anabolic enough to trigger muscle on it's own right) would help shuttle Amino's and Glycogen as fast as possible (combined with the full amino profile from the whey protein) within the critical post workout window....and maximize any anti-catabolic effect of post workout nutritiion......but i would argue the pre-and during workout time is the most important for them (BCAA's)....
Catabolic effect huh?.... Sounds to me like someone has swallowed just as much marketing bullshit as BCAA's.
__________________
Working "hard," or the perception of working hard, doesn't really mean anything. Sweating, vomiting, and breathing hard could be a good workout or a tropical disease kicking in.-Dan John
Nice vid.....i'm growing just from the inspiration
Fortunately i'm not a vegan i just like to be able to replenish BCAA's as fast as possible to prevent catabolic effects associated with working out............
which can replenish BCAA's faster during a workout (and minimize the catabolic effect of training)......Free form BCAA's taken prior, during , and just post workout
or waiting for the gradual breakdown of competing amino acids in the gut from a chicken breast........?
let me guess you will respond with a disney video.....i like i like
Supplement companies love people like you. Wait a minute, they DEPEND on people as gullible as you. Let me answer your question with a link.
my thought process (assuming you are asking why i would also consume them post workout)
is that the insulin spike the BCAA's can provide (which the spike is not anabolic enough to trigger muscle on it's own right) would help shuttle Amino's and Glycogen as fast as possible (combined with the full amino profile from the whey protein) within the critical post workout window....and maximize any anti-catabolic effect of post workout nutritiion......but i would argue the pre-and during workout time is the most important for them (BCAA's)....
I meant, assuming regular eating of protein, that we all have BCAAs ready to be used when needed. So, you probably already have them from the multiple previous meals, even after your workout.
BCAA's and Creatine
Linear Mode
