Diet, Nutrition and SupplementationPost here for supplement reviews or nutritional advice. If you're trying to get "ripped abz" THIS is where you should be.
Alan Aragon does a great job in the December Issue comparing the profiles. Guess who wins? Check out the article. I liked it so much I read it a few times.
Great job Alan. Maybe guys on the forums will eventually learn if you are going to debate with Alan be prepared to really debate and you better bring some evidence OR
It shoulda been a poll for a week before he let the link out.
I vote for the choco milk!
__________________ 2009: No races, No times. Slow year. So, now you're 96 cals short. You're now in starvation mode. Doomed. - LostDog
Blog entry: November 1, 2009, Pancakes LiveSTRONG daily plate log
It's in the December Alan Aragon Research Review, which some of us read.
Chocolate milk wins and Alan makes a great non biased analysis of both products. Good read, as usual and saving us, lazy to read research people, a lot of trouble.
p.s. I think it would be very nice if we had links to things everybody has access to, and if not, at least sum up what we read that's so exciting to us, but nobody here gets
Yeah I was half-heartedly following the progress of that debate from the links that were posted on Lyle's mean forum. It's like watching a fight when you already know who the winner is.
galya, on monkeyisland.lylemcdonald.com there's a whole section of the forum for paper and research requests. If you know the name of the research you want to read, you can request it, or if someone offers a particular study you can make a request and someone who has it will email to you.
Thanks for the kudos, everyone. OldGuy - yeah, that debate I had w/Bill Roberts (biotest product formulator) was a hoot, wasn't it? Those who witnessed it know why a lot of posts were censored (including my own), and why the thread ultimately was deleted.
Anyway, Lyle asked me if it's cool that I let him post the CM vs Surge article on his site, and I agreed to it. I'm not gonna make a habit out of handing out AARR content to the non-subscribed public, but I think that this particular case warrants exception.
I haven't been over BR in a long long time, I had no idea the content was posted there as well. I think none of the subscribers would mind if you occasionally posted what is essentially "YOUR" work wherever you find appropriate to set pivotal issues straight.
Thanks for the kudos, everyone. OldGuy - yeah, that debate I had w/Bill Roberts (biotest product formulator) was a hoot, wasn't it? Those who witnessed it know why a lot of posts were censored (including my own), and why the thread ultimately was deleted.
Yeah, it was a very good thread. Too bad they feel the need to protect their own over is greater than the need to get real information out there.
Quote:
Anyway, Lyle asked me if it's cool that I let him post the CM vs Surge article on his site, and I agreed to it. I'm not gonna make a habit out of handing out AARR content to the non-subscribed public, but I think that this particular case warrants exception.
And still no link.
__________________
"A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have."
I'm sure Lyle will be posting it soon, he recently posted an article about the myths of HFCS, posted another one about milk as a recovery drink not too long ago, so if he's going to post the CM/Surge article it appears he's got a new series of articles in the works.
I like this thread. Now I know who the 'Bill Roberts' I've seen posting in some threads (at T-Nation) is. I also like that one of the researchers cited in the link above is named Tang.
I don't want to just jump in and bash stuff like Surge because I know very little about this stuff, but as a person always looking to add bodyweight I found out myself that Kroger brand Slim Rite compares favorably (under my semi-literate scrutiny of the labels) to Muscle Milk at a much cheaper price. This could be for several reasons, not the least of which the fact that more people seek weight loss help over weight gain help and the market dictates higher prices on the latter, but I also find stuff like Muscle Milk as overhyped and overpriced because, well, of the industry that makes it.
__________________
Since most of your life is already complicated, why make your training the same way? Jim Wendler
Im kind of doomed though, I had whole white milk PWO today, the sugars made my insulin spike while the fats had free range over my body and i was sure to gain bodyfat while not getting the full 'training effect' (thanks for that one CT) of my workout.
its ok though, i balanced things out by taking 80grams of bcaas.
Ahh I enjoy sites like this. They usually gives me a chuckle.
__________________ 2009: No races, No times. Slow year. So, now you're 96 cals short. You're now in starvation mode. Doomed. - LostDog
Blog entry: November 1, 2009, Pancakes LiveSTRONG daily plate log
Kind of a shame, but on the other hand it is their forum and business is business, and it's not like people are forced to read that forum and that forum alone. We are all fully capable of realizing that despite some good info, it is put their so they can sell their supplements.
__________________ 2009: No races, No times. Slow year. So, now you're 96 cals short. You're now in starvation mode. Doomed. - LostDog
Blog entry: November 1, 2009, Pancakes LiveSTRONG daily plate log
Kind of a shame, but on the other hand it is their forum and business is business, and it's not like people are forced to read that forum and that forum alone. We are all fully capable of realizing that despite some good info, it is put their so they can sell their supplements.
From a business standpoint, it's probably fine. However, from the standpoint of academic ethics or intellectual honesty, not so much. I'm sure a large number of their members will go without ever becoming aware of plenty of legit-yet-conflicting info outside the t-mag bubble. I'm willing to give some people the benefit of the doubt, but there's only so much faith you can place in the public's investigative skills. Tis what it is, and in the end, I realize you can't educate everybody.
It really is kind of a shame that t-mag would actively blindfold their forum members from legit info. Oh well, I guess business is business.
they've been doing this for years way back when they were testosterone magazine and not t-nation. I remember Joel Marion split from them, and formed ruggedmag, it was widely talked about t-nation's questionable business and forum tactics by the posters there. Joel would try and stop the negative posts though, b/c he didn't want to risk the threat of libel from them. That was kind of thrown out the window though when Joel shut down ruggedmag one day, without any warning to the thousands of posters, and reconciled and joined t-mag again.
It's a shame too, b/c ruggedmag (not sure if you remember it?), was probably the best place that i've ever posted at in terms of helpful content to those interested in adding size+strength. Lots of helpful posters there. Some post at Al Caslow's board still, some went to marunde's board, some to bodyrecomp, and some to wannabebig.
I also remember one time someone from t-mag staff making a fake account and sent threatening e-mails or something of that nature. People from ruggedmag ended up running the IP and it traced back to t-nation's main building. I'm sure some people will remember this better than me.. maybe ask Jared, Matt (powermanDL) from here or Aaron over at bodyrecomp.
Seeing this stuff first hand, years ago, made me realize what a poor ethically run business it is over at t-nation. Sure they make money, but it's by duping their customers, and pulling the wool over their eyes from anything negative about their products. They're no better than the fat burning supplement commercials.
__________________ True Protein 5% off discount code: ZHS099 www.trueprotein.com
From a business standpoint, it's probably fine. However, from the standpoint of academic ethics or intellectual honesty, not so much. I'm sure a large number of their members will go without ever becoming aware of plenty of legit-yet-conflicting info outside the t-mag bubble. I'm willing to give some people the benefit of the doubt, but there's only so much faith you can place in the public's investigative skills. Tis what it is, and in the end, I realize you can't educate everybody.
Business stand point - agreed Academics etc - agreed. I don't personally see them as a hot bed for academics. No matter how much truth an article says, as soon as it blatantly mentions a product it loses all of that, you know unless it is a study about a product. The Public - Agreed. There will always be those who get information from multiple sources and those who only get it from one. As you say you can not educate everyone.
__________________ 2009: No races, No times. Slow year. So, now you're 96 cals short. You're now in starvation mode. Doomed. - LostDog
Blog entry: November 1, 2009, Pancakes LiveSTRONG daily plate log
I have to point out that T-Nation, as a website, is a wealth of information and contains 100s of useful articles. Just because in just about every second article, they plug in a product at some point, doesn't lessen the quality of the information (not all of the information is quality of course).
I do however get very annoyed how most of the members of their forum are so gullible to believe every single tidbit about supplementation the Biotest tells them. Biotest does sell some quality products, but they are not vastly superior to many of the formulations made by other top companies Surge Recovery and Surge Workout Fuel are great products, but they aren't genius formulations made by the gods in a secret underground laboratory like they make it out to be. Still, we must acknowledge that Biotest, as a company, exists only to make profit while maintaining some ethical justice. They are no worse, and probably better than many other companies.
An interesting example of how they may stretch science. In their L-Leucine product introduction, they cited 2 studies that used all of the BCAAs in a near fasted state, contrary to what they were trying to prove, which is that "L-Leucine increases your muscle building potential by 50-70% when added to meals". Also, in said studies, it was even concluded that the effects the BCAAs were insignificant.
Does anybody actually buy there stuff? This value shopper does check out what they have, but it seems high, and also to assert knowing a lot more about ingredients than what studies have actually established.
Here's my system.
X ingredient was shown to affect Y in the body of a rat? man? person with a particular condition?
Y is known to be involved with Alpha, Beta, and Gamma
Hence Z, a supplement firm, puts it in their PSI formulation, to be used to benefit Y, and bring about Chi benefit.
The problem is that you have a long chain of logical steps, with a study addressing only one or two of them, and even that is likely not a good representation of what substance X will do in your body.
My humor about T Nation, they are very sincere, what they are putting in their bottles is not likely to hurt me, and it is not so expensive that if I wanted a supplement plus placebo I would likely buy.
More seriously, the whole f***ing drug industry does exactly the same thing. I am diabetic and have had more dangerous drugs pushed on me by doctors, including those at the University of Washington. If anyone wants, I will write up the very expensive, very dangerous drugs that most diabetics are taking unaware. And if experience is any guide, the drug companies will replace the ones that people get scared of off, with more just as dangerous, and ineffective.
Ts stuff, in the scheme of things is pretty mild and innocuous.
I have to point out that T-Nation, as a website, is a wealth of information and contains 100s of useful articles. Just because in just about every second article, they plug in a product at some point, doesn't lessen the quality of the information (not all of the information is quality of course).
Sure but there will never be an article written that downplays suplementation or a comparison that shows their products are as good or less good than any other. And that is why it is not an academic site to me. It dosen't mean some of the articles don't have useful information, or that some are not entertaining.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Rider
I do however get very annoyed how most of the members of their forum are so gullible to believe every single tidbit about supplementation the Biotest tells them. Biotest does sell some quality products, but they are not vastly superior to many other top companies or any other formulations. Surge Recovery and Surge Workout Fuel are great products, but they aren't genius formulations made by the gods in a secret underground laboratory like they make it out to be. Still, we must acknowledge that Biotest, as a company, exists only to make profit while maintaining some ethical justice. They are no worse, and probably better than many other companies).
Agreed, as a company that wants to sell suplements they do it well, but we have to remeber that that is what they primarily are. They want to get out information that will sell their product.
There will never be an article written that downplays suplementation or a comparison that shows their products are as good or less good than any other. And that is why it is not an academic site to me. It dosen't mean some of the articles don't have useful information, or that some are not entertaining.
It just means to me they have the potential to be VERY one sided, and this chocolate milk discussion is a prime example.
When will we see the article that says we can use chocolate milk to recover and all we really need for supplements is omega-3s and maybe a whey powder (without mentioning their whey and their omega-3)
I don't blame them for this, or even ask them to change. They are as you say a company that is in business to make money. We just need to be aware that that is what they are.
__________________ 2009: No races, No times. Slow year. So, now you're 96 cals short. You're now in starvation mode. Doomed. - LostDog
Blog entry: November 1, 2009, Pancakes LiveSTRONG daily plate log
Business stand point - agreed Academics etc - agreed. I don't personally see them as a hot bed for academics. No matter how much truth an article says, as soon as it blatantly mentions a product it loses all of that, you know unless it is a study about a product. The Public - Agreed. There will always be those who get information from multiple sources and those who only get it from one. As you say you can not educate everyone.
Yup, indeed.
PS - I harbor no ill will towards t-mag, their business model has been working well for some time now, and censoring me from stomping Roberts was obviously nothing personal.
Obviously Alan doesn't know what he is talking about. Surge is much more expensive than chocolate milk, therefore it is packed with much more stuff to help you get RIPPED and HYOOGE!
Chocolate milk vs Surge Recovery
Linear Mode
