Diet, Nutrition and SupplementationPost here for supplement reviews or nutritional advice. If you're trying to get "ripped abz" THIS is where you should be.
This thread is a continuum of the topic started in Diane's log RE gainers and best way to gain. Diane is trying to up her calories and had chosen to eat cake, fried pizza rolls and that type of food. I suggested that if she really needs to up the calories that a gainer would be better than eating fried food and cake. Roland jumped in to dis-vow the goodness of gainers as did Jill. I would like to take this discussion out of Diane's log so we can continue it without messing up her space.
Yes, eat as many whole foods as possible but how can fried pizza snacks, french fries and that sort of empty eating be better than a gainer? First of all it is truly empty in calories. You get high GI carbs, fat (lots of it) and almost no protein. That sounds like much more of a recipe for gaining fat to me.
At least with a gainer you are getting high protein with your carbs. We can argue the benefits of the carbs but generally speaking I would bet they are better than french fry carbs if nothing more than for the fact that they are not covered in fat. In addition to this you can physically get more calories in using a gainer than with whole foods. This can be a good thing people looking to gain weight but not eat a lot of fat. I had to go from being in serious deficit (1400 cals) up almost 1000 cals a day. I could not have done this with whole food even over the course of years because I do not do well on a 30% fat diet. My body likes 20% or less.
I was able to gain 10lbs in the past 3.5 months and only 3 of those pounds are fat. The first month was spent just stopping the weight loss so mostly that result is from 2.5 months of effort. Using a gainer wasn't about the marketing for me. It was the only way I felt confident that I could tackle my food issues and achieve the goal of gaining muscle mass.
I would like to hear opinions on this especially from people who have done a gain process that they thought was successful.
A bunch of heavily processed carbs, usually a pretty poor protein source and often a high price. Mix some oats, powder and oil togethor and drink that, you can get 1000cals easy right there.
Ive added more size then most people on this forum I would imagine (mind you, ive lost some recently) and wouldn't even think about using a weight gainer because its such a poor food choice.
No need to chow down all that crap food loaded down with all kinds of nastiness to gain weight, and no need for a weight gain mix.
A little thought would find some economical and tasty solutions. My favorite:
NOTE: Since this is a weight gainer, use full fat for all ingredients.
1/2 cp cottage cheese 4% fat.
1 cp Vitamin D milk (could even use choco mik)
1 cp kefir or full-fat yogurt.
2tbsp natural peanut butter.
1scp whey.
Now, this this doesn't have so much carbs, but that is remedied.
Honey, hot cocoa mix, sugar, fruit, etc.
Blend it until smooth.
I used generic concepts (whey, rather than chocolate whey), to leave it open for flavor customization. Keep in mind, cottage cheese is pretty salty.
If the calories are still not making it, add olive oil because it's sufficiently bland enough to not alter the taste much.
I don't believe eating processed food or taking a weight gainer is essential. There is plenty of options available in the clean section.
I give almost identical advice to my friends that are trying to gain some weight.
2 scoops of low carb protien powder( i don't like the filler carbs that are in most real replacements
3 TBs of almond or cashew butter
8 oz of milk
8 oz of H20
2-3 times a day in addition to normal meals. This and heavy lifting usually works pretty well.
I give almost identical advice to my friends that are trying to gain some weight.
2 scoops of low carb protien powder( i don't like the filler carbs that are in most real replacements
3 TBs of almond or cashew butter
8 oz of milk
8 oz of H20
2-3 times a day in addition to normal meals. This and heavy lifting usually works pretty well.
The only thing, since water has zero calories, it does little good to have it in a weight gainer. Also, even in a non-PWO weight gainer, you need to have some carbs. Milk is alright, but if I recall, the galactose is good for the liver, not so great for muscle. I would add something with other carbs, such as grains or even simple sugars such as glucose or dextrose.
Okay these are great but my body doesn't do well with very much fat and I cannot drink whole milk or even a lot of 1% milk. I do lots better with more carbs. That is why Cytogainer was a good choice for me. I could not come up with a gainer that gave me 600 cals with so little fat. I never thought to use Cottage Chesse though. Hmmm....
On second thought I don't care about spending the money and I would rather not be blending and cooking up stuff 2 times a day. Does it then make sense to eat gainers?
The only thing, since water has zero calories, it does little good to have it in a weight gainer. Also, even in a non-PWO weight gainer, you need to have some carbs. Milk is alright, but if I recall, the galactose is good for the liver, not so great for muscle. I would add something with other carbs, such as grains or even simple sugars such as glucose or dextrose.
Personally the reason, i need the h20 is just so its not sooo thick. But i guess that varies for different individuals. Post work out I use biotest surge (please don't slam cuz i love the taste of that stuff)
Gainers are popular yet I've never wanted to sell them as they aren't worth the money. You can make a healthier gainer yourself than the el cheapo gainers out there. And if you'd design a low GI gainer, people wouldn't want to pay more for it than for an el cheapo one.
For the record when I was recovering from illness a few years ago and still had a poor appetite, I had a shake made from
- water
- 500g Quark
- 1 or 2 raw eggs
- 1 scoop of whey PP
- real fruit , mostly a banana and frozen berries
- some lemonade syrup
Right now I don't do much dairy anymore, but have no trouble eating more than I need to. If a young guy/woman who's an undereat would come to me, I'd give him the same recipe, with perhaps replacing the whey PP for a micellar casein blend as it's even better.
Okay these are great but my body doesn't do well with very much fat and I cannot drink whole milk or even a lot of 1% milk. I do lots better with more carbs. That is why Cytogainer was a good choice for me. I could not come up with a gainer that gave me 600 cals with so little fat. I never thought to use Cottage Chesse though. Hmmm....
On second thought I don't care about spending the money and I would rather not be blending and cooking up stuff 2 times a day. Does it then make sense to eat gainers?
Have you tried protein powders with just some fruit and fruit juice. If you like carbs that might be a good way to go. I'm not super carb tolerant but if i was :
2 scoops vanilla protein
8-16oz pinapple juice
banana
strawberries
Personally the reason, i need the h20 is just so its not sooo thick. But i guess that varies for different individuals. Post work out I use biotest surge (please don't slam cuz i love the taste of that stuff)
I like the taste of it too. It's the only thing I've found that tastes good in water, so I use it during my workouts.
Never. You must make sure it's not an overly dirty egg. This morning I had the rare bloody egg and threw it away. Also, when I occasionally separate the egg & the yolk, I'm using a stainless steel separator rather than fingers or the shell as the possible risk is always from the shell, not from inside.
For every like 10 000 eggs, just 1 is contaminated.
The thing to think about is to not have raw eggwhite only, it has avidine that limits biotine absorption. It's actually better to just have the raw yolk, rather than the eggwhites.
I've used Cytogainer for extended periods before. I think it's fine. However, at the time, I was working at a supplement shop and got a damn good discount.
As far as the convenience issue, I go through phases. For a while I feel like not thinking about it... and I get in that "I don't wanna spend 30 minutes a day preparing bizarre shakes and then cleaning up after myself!" But most times I just find a groove, and the prep/clean-up is done before I know it. I usually feel more confident about things when I know exactly what I'm eating, and that it's good stuff.
But yeah, if you don't mind spending the money rather than the time, there's no great difference that'll make or break you.
*30 minutes ago I had my Ben&Jerry's, baby spinach and whey blend. 700 cals, 40g protein and 1/2 bag of green phytonutrients! *
Yup. If you blend 2 cups of baby spinach with 1/2 pint of Chocolate Fudge Brownie Ben & Jerry's, you'll never taste the spinach! It does, however, turn slightly muddy-green!
Diane is trying to up her calories and had chosen to eat cake, fried pizza rolls and that type of food.
That's a mis-characterization of what happened, at least the way I read it. Her DH returned from out of town with some less than perfect choices for food, of which she had some regular pizza (not fried pizza rolls) and some eggroll. No cake, no fries etc. This was a snack, not a gainer program or long term strategy.
IMO the only trouble with regular pizza is the refined white flour in the crust and the trouble with eggroll is that it was likely fried in rancid soybean oil.
That's a mis-characterization of what happened, at least the way I read it. Her DH returned from out of town with some less than perfect choices for food, of which she had some regular pizza (not fried pizza rolls) and some eggroll. No cake, no fries etc. This was a snack, not a gainer program or long term strategy.
IMO the only trouble with regular pizza is the refined white flour in the crust and the trouble with eggroll is that it was likely fried in rancid soybean oil.
Yeah, I agree with Susan on this. I think Diane's situation got grossly misrepresented. Since my name got dragged into the original post, I think I should say that I have nothing against gainers if it fits within your current plan. If what you need is calories and convenience and price is not an issue, by all means go for a gainer instead of making your own shake or eating other types of high calorie foods. However, just because some swole bro is on the label does not mean it's somehow some amazingly healthy superfood more worthy than some chocolate milk mixed with whey protein.
But the original discussion in Diane's log was me just saying there's no "magic" to the gainer. Any type of food will work and I don't see anything wrong with eating some pizza, drinking some chocolate milk or eating egg rolls and perhaps the occasional pop tart if what you are trying to do is add calories to your diet. I'm not saying it should be the foundation of your diet, but what's wrong with eating some damn pizza? Plus, even if you're NOT trying to gain weight, eating some crap on occasion is just fine.
Thanks girls for keeping the story straight. It was never my intent to misrepresent. Only to bring the subject over here to talk about. Without going back and forth with "she said" etc, I tried to summarize it. It was never my intent to hurt anyone if I did and apoligize. I am really just trying to learn here with the rest of you. I hope that is all well now.
Actually I just rechecked the log and she had nachos, cobbler, cheesecake and cake dribbled with some sauce but you are right no fried pizza rolls. Only fried egg rolls and pizza. Perhaps I grossly understated the story. LOL!!! (Lighten up folks it is funny)
When Diane wrote this I did not realize that it was in small quantities. I read it that she was using these foods in larger quantities to bring up her calories and I suggested that a gainer might be better than these choices. That is all. I don't disagree with anyone that these foods are okay within moderation. My only suggestion was that they might not be the best foods for uping calories or gaining.
I've used Cytogainer for extended periods before. I think it's fine. However, at the time, I was working at a supplement shop and got a damn good discount.
As far as the convenience issue, I go through phases. For a while I feel like not thinking about it... and I get in that "I don't wanna spend 30 minutes a day preparing bizarre shakes and then cleaning up after myself!" But most times I just find a groove, and the prep/clean-up is done before I know it. I usually feel more confident about things when I know exactly what I'm eating, and that it's good stuff.
But yeah, if you don't mind spending the money rather than the time, there's no great difference that'll make or break you.
*30 minutes ago I had my Ben&Jerry's, baby spinach and whey blend. 700 cals, 40g protein and 1/2 bag of green phytonutrients! *
If you are using protein powders in your homemade gainers I think it has to be consumed within 30 minutes of making it. Since my gainers happen before and/or after my workouts that would be impossible for me to do. I will stick with Cytogainer for this go around and then try something different next cycle.
If you are using protein powders in your homemade gainers I think it has to be consumed within 30 minutes of making it.
I don't think it denatures that quickly. The 30mins you're referring to is probably the PWO "window" in which you're at your best for protein uptake following an intense workout.
No I had read that it denatures though the workout window is another consideration. Honestly I don't get the whole denature thing with this powder. I cooked with the cytogainer and was told that denatured it. I am wondering how turning the protein into a powder doesnt' denature it.
Even if it denatures, so what? Cooking denatures protein. So does digestion in the stomach (acid denatures as well as heat).
You'd need to find an additional explanation of what supposed adverse effect denaturing protein powder via "age in solution" might bring about. And then decide if you believe the claim or not, and then if you think it makes a difference for you even if you do believe it.
That's the problem Lisa. I can't seem to find anything that is believeable on the subject or even comprehensive let alone applicable. I used to make these awesome cytogainer cookies but was told that I destroyed all the protein when I baked them. I just don't get what that means or how it happens.
Roland jumped in to dis-vow the goodness of gainers
This discussion started because I said that gainers were not better than those other foods.
Gainers are good for convenience or for those who can't eat enough.
Another good thing about them might be that they don't get formerly fat people used to eating so much again. A gainer or thin shake isn't particularly satisfying, so when you stop taking them, you don't really miss the feeling as much as you would the buffet line.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kfisherx
Yes, eat as many whole foods as possible but how can fried pizza snacks, french fries and that sort of empty eating be better than a gainer? First of all it is truly empty in calories. You get high GI carbs, fat (lots of it) and almost no protein. That sounds like much more of a recipe for gaining fat to me.
At least with a gainer you are getting high protein with your carbs. We can argue the benefits of the carbs but generally speaking I would bet they are better than french fry carbs if nothing more than for the fact that they are not covered in fat.
More protein is a big plus over the junk food, but what about a scoop of whey in water, with a big ol' Coke for a chaser? A regular Coke, not diet. That's about what a gainer is. "Sugar" and protein.
People tend to think that junk food is inherently bad, but many of them are "ok." It's just the portion sizes or frequency of eating them that's the issue.
Fries -- Potatoes cooked in healthy oil are nutritious. Too many are bad. The wrong kind of oil is bad.
Pizza -- Wheat, cheese, olive oil, meat, and veggies are all nutritious. Too much dough, white refined flour, too much cheese, too much high calorie meat or not enough lean meat, too few veggies, etc. All that adds up to too many calories for most of us. ...at least to get a satisfying amount. "Healthy" pizzas use better ingredients in the right ratios, so hopefully we won't overeat the calories. I still can.
You see the gainer as something with purpose, so it's good, but it's still just ingredients. Not particularly good ingredients, so you have to weigh the purpose of them to judge the worth. Is it convenient enough to warrant the empty calories vs better calories? Maybe.
There's a huge delta between the healthy and nutritious and the empty calories. Use the cereal aisle as an example. You can walk the row and mentally rate the cereals that are better than the others. Some are pure sugar and processed into nothing good (fruity pebbles, anyone?). Others are nutritionally dense, but huge calorie bombs (granola, for instance). Then there's oatmeal (which is also in granola), from plain to those little packets of sugary deliciousness. It's a big range. You can only judge a cereal by reading the ingredients and nutrition label and understanding how much of it you'll be eating. The same with any foods.
BTW, here's a simple gainer that won't work for everyone, but it's an illustration of how simple things can be.
7 cups of nonfat milk is 600 calories, 59g P, and 84g C.
You don't have to drink it all at once, of course. You can wash down your thin mints with it, throughout the day.
Quote:
Originally Posted by onepack
Was the spinach in the shake
Frozen spinach works best for me. It blends up smoother. Frozen broccoli florets work well, too. You won't even notice. Maybe...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynic
I don't think it denatures that quickly. The 30mins you're referring to is probably the PWO "window" in which you're at your best for protein uptake following an intense workout.
Still trying to find where it denatures in solution. So far, it's protein hormones in the digestive tract (new info) and protein when heated for long periods (old info).
I've yet to read it denatures to any great degree within 30mins in solution. Overnight, yes.
The Magic of Gainers
or the shell as the possible risk is always from the shell, not from inside. 
*
If you blend 2 cups of baby spinach with 1/2 pint of Chocolate Fudge Brownie Ben & Jerry's, you'll never taste the spinach! It does, however, turn slightly muddy-green! 
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