creatine question - JP Fitness Forums

sg516 · 02-08-2008, 08:31 AM

sorry if this is a question that has been beaten into the ground. i tried the search function but so much came up that it would take me all afternoon to sift through it and i don't think my boss would appreciate me using my time like that.

anyway, i am interested in creatine but i don't know what to look for or what to steer clear of. any recomendations of a product? i saw creatine pills and creatine powder at the store but i wasn't sure if the delivery method made a difference.

thanks.

Lost Dog · 02-08-2008, 08:54 AM

You just want creatine monohydrate or micronized creatine on the label. No sugar, carbs, malto or anything. After that, find the cheapest per gram.

If you buy stuff at t-nation.com, their creatine is fairly competitive in it's pricing. I can find it locally, just a bit cheaper, but it's not worth the drive a two dollar savings on a six month supply when I'm getting other t-nation items, anyway.

sg516 · 02-08-2008, 08:59 AM

Thanks LD!

Defiant1 · 02-08-2008, 09:01 AM

Just get plain old powdered creatine monohydrate. Here is a link for some for a good price.

Some people say that you have to load the creatine for a few days to fully saturate your muscles. I've seen recommendations for taking 5g up to 4 times a day for the "loading" phase. But others believe that you don't need to load it. Personally I don't and never have. I take one 5g serving each day. And it doesn't really matter when or what time during the day you take it, just as long as you take it.

Cynic · 02-08-2008, 03:04 PM

And it should have the Creapure symbol.

brady_44 · 02-09-2008, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Defiant1

But others believe that you don't need to load it. Personally I don't and never have.

I agree, 5 grams a day is plenty. I'm not sure where I got it, but when I was taking creatine, I always had good luck with Optimum Nutrition.

smittygouv · 02-12-2008, 02:21 PM

I listened to an interview with John Berardi and he recommended 10g per day. Too much? I really believe in his stuff, he also recommends 400-500g of protein for a 200lb man.

Lost Dog · 02-12-2008, 02:27 PM

When was that interview? There are some old ones out there.

10g is fine. There's not really a downside to a bit too much.

That's a lot of protein. I'd be sweatin' up a storm.

Cynic · 02-12-2008, 03:23 PM

I'm not sure the body can use 2g+/lb. Perhaps Alan knows for certain, but I feel that there must be a diminishing return or even a rate cut-off at which the body can't use anymore. Afterall, if it can use it all optimally, then why not spoon whey over everything?

Alan Aragon · 02-12-2008, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smittygouv

I listened to an interview with John Berardi and he recommended 10g per day. Too much? I really believe in his stuff, he also recommends 400-500g of protein for a 200lb man.

You may want to check your belief criteria. Scientific evidence - versus faith in the words of any particular individual - is the best bet.

Daily creatine 'turnover' is on average about 2g/day. So for folks who don't eat large amounts of red meat, supplementing with anything beyond 2g/day as a maintenance dose would be a good conservative starting point. Loading schemes in the literature are typically 20g/day for 5 days, then a maintenance protocol of 2-5g/day follows that. No where in the scientific literature I've come across recommends a 10g/day maintenance dose. Bear in mind that once intramuscular creatine saturation is reached, any amount beyond that is excreted, so the loading phase only serves to achieve saturation more quickly. There's no way to load creatine in muscle beyond its pre-set limit. Regardless of loading or not, most individuals will reach saturation within a month.

As for setting protein dose at 2-2.5g/lb, there's quite simply no scientific evidence that this is necessary or beneficial for adding lean mass. Half of this amount is a good ballpark starting point from which to fudge up or down as needed. In general, those at caloric maintenance or above need less protein, those who are hypocaloric (dieting) need slightly more.

Cynic · 02-12-2008, 04:09 PM

Good to have you back Alan.

Alan Aragon · 02-12-2008, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynic

Good to have you back Alan.

You'll have me for a little bit more before I get all caught up in finishing my monthly research review & other work assignments

smittygouv · 02-12-2008, 05:31 PM

Thanks for the responses... i found the interview. My apologies, I lied about the creatine dose Berardi recommends. It must have been a different interview by somebody else where I heard 10g/day. Berardi recommends 3-5g/day. In this interview he talks about why he thinks 4-5g of protein per kg body weight is justified.

http://www.johnberardi.com/audio/berardi_staley.mp3

I'm not sure the exact date of the interview... but here is his ideas. He has an interesting perspective. If you have time check out the interview, I'd like to hear some responses. Its kind of long interview so if you want to skip to the protein section of the interview its at about the 1/4th mark, and the creatine section is at about the 3/4th mark.

Alan Aragon · 02-13-2008, 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smittygouv

Thanks for the responses... i found the interview. My apologies, I lied about the creatine dose Berardi recommends. It must have been a different interview by somebody else where I heard 10g/day. Berardi recommends 3-5g/day. In this interview he talks about why he thinks 4-5g of protein per kg body weight is justified.

http://www.johnberardi.com/audio/berardi_staley.mp3

I'm not sure the exact date of the interview... but here is his ideas. He has an interesting perspective. If you have time check out the interview, I'd like to hear some responses. Its kind of long interview so if you want to skip to the protein section of the interview its at about the 1/4th mark, and the creatine section is at about the 3/4th mark.

JB did a lot of speculating & theorizing. The bottom line is that his conjecture is not supported by research on human subjects that measured body composition changes over time using various amounts of protein. The upper cutoff point for maximal LBM gains - given adequate total calories & carbohydrate - appears to be in the neighborhood of 2g/kg (0.9g/lb). This is right in line with the old bodybuilding cliche of 1g/lb being a good general target. Any amount significantly beyond that is simply oxidized rather than used for the building of new muscle tissue. And yes, this has been demonstrated in research, on athletic humans. As a matter of fact, there are several examples in research of roughly 1.5g/kg (0.68g/lb) adding or preserving LBM under hypocaloric conditions. This means that it's pretty liberal & optimistic to believe that any amount of protein beyond slightly over a gram per pound would be useful for supporting LBM mintenance or gain under any condition of caloric (im)balance. The idea that 3 times this amount is necessary or optimal for hurrying muscle gains simply has not been demonstrated in research, let alone proven beyond considerable doubt. In practice with clients, I haven't seen any use for exceeding an upper range of 2.2-3.3g/kg (1-1.5g/lb) even in the most extreme dieting situations.

karky · 02-13-2008, 05:01 AM

When taking creatine, I've heard (in an article at t-nation, sorry, can't seem to find it) that you don't have to take creatine on your off days. The reason was because after taking it (which you do after a training session) you will stay satured until the next time you train. Now I take 10g after training (I've tried with 5, didn't work so I figured I'd might as well start experimenting)

sg516 · 02-13-2008, 09:03 AM

i am only lifting 3 days per week but i am very physically active 6 days a week. (martial arts and triathlon training.) so should i will i still need to take creatine everyday? or just on lift days? also, how much water weight is typical for a person to gain from this product, and is it the bloated kind of water weight feeling? and lastly if a person stops using this supplement how long does it take for the creatine and water weight to leave the body?

sorry if these are all very newbish questions but i am new to the supplementation thing. and for the matter the lifting thing. anyway, as always, any and all information is greatly appreciated.

~Steve

smittygouv · 02-13-2008, 02:46 PM

Thanks for the reply Alan. It's great to see some scientific backup. I've been eating anywhere from 400-500g of protein/day, as well as eating 3500-4500 cals/day, for the past 2 months trying to put on some mass. Obviously cutting down the protein would be a noble idea. How would you recommend making up for the calories lost by taking away the protein? Should I consume more carbs, fats, both, or does it not matter that much?

Cynic · 02-13-2008, 03:36 PM

Alan, I just remember something!

Someone anonymous said that Creatine is a protein. OldGuy showed that wrong. However, he went on say it's derived from protein or had some similarity.

I got molecular diagrams of a typical amino acid and creatine. They looked similar, but it has been 10+ years since my last college chemistry course.

What is your knowledge on this? Is creatine linked in some way to proteins?