Thoughts on honey.

[Cynic]

This is for all our resident and semi-regular nutrition experts. Aragon is a big proponent of calories that carry some nutritional value, thus dex and malt are poor choices for carbs sources for the PWO drink.

I'm trying to come up with something to use. I've considering a flavored yogurt (I like dannon's low fat vanilla) and honey, but when you seperate the components, you have sugar as the carb source (and the nutrient value of honey is questionable).

Now, if simple carbs are what replenish blood and muscle glucose/glycogen, what nutrient dense simple carb source is available?

[southwest-rider]

Cynic, if you want honey for sweetnes, go with raw honey, or find something called stevia, both work great as a sweetner. Better those than something like Equal or some other artificial crap.
Dont be too afraid of sugars, remember that fruits, when it comes down to it, are high in sugars, does that mean they're bad ???

[Cynic]

Originally Posted by southwest-rider

Cynic, if you want honey for sweetnes, go with raw honey, or find something called stevia, both work great as a sweetner. Better those than something like Equal or some other artificial crap.
Dont be too afraid of sugars, remember that fruits, when it comes down to it, are high in sugars, does that mean they're bad ???

No, it's not the sweetner I'm looking at.

It's the carb source for the insulin reaction. Sugar just happens to be a convenient one, but I'm listening to ideas for sources that aren't empty calories.

I have zero problem with fruit. I love my apples and cherry oatmeal. It's a low cal source of fructose. Better at liver replenishment, not muscle and blood. Once I use up my dex, malt and surge, I intend to follow the 1/3 rule to restore the liver, but there still needs to be a source for the simple carbs for the muscle and blood.

[LisaS]

Would lactose be OK? you can always use NF milk powder.

the tubers might be a choice for you in a shake - sweet potato or pumpkin or other cooked & mashed winter squash

if you go to nutritiondata.com you can see the breakdown of most foods CHO content into the individual sugars (if the food has been measured that way)

[coach hale]

What exactly are you implying when you use the word sugar?

Newer Carbohydrate classification system (refer to as Advanced Carb Classification in The Carbohydrate Files) classifies carbs:

They may be classified according to their degree of polymerization and may be divided into three principal groups, namely sugars, oligosaccharides and polysaccharides. Sugars include monosaccharides, disaccharides and polyols.

I probably would not be over concerned with this unless you need to replenish glycogen in a really rapid manner.

thanks
coach hale
www.maxcondition.com

[Alan Aragon]

Originally Posted by Cynic

This is for all our resident and semi-regular nutrition experts. Aragon is a big proponent of calories that carry some nutritional value, thus dex and malt are poor choices for carbs sources for the PWO drink.

I'm trying to come up with something to use. I've considering a flavored yogurt (I like dannon's low fat vanilla) and honey, but when you seperate the components, you have sugar as the carb source (and the nutrient value of honey is questionable).

Now, if simple carbs are what replenish blood and muscle glucose/glycogen, what nutrient dense simple carb source is available?

Cynic,

I'm more a proponent of, "Carb subtypes don't matter, just get enough carbs".

While it's true that some sources are more micronutritionally dense -- and thus may be optimal from a long-term health standpoint if you consume a high amount --I don't see the grave harm in using simple sugars for convenience purposes. What I don't agree with is the common misconception that they're blanketly superior postworkout.

And ditto to Jamie on the overblown concern for speed of glycogen resynthesis, especially for folks who don't train the same muscles to full depletion more than once in the same day. Bottom line = have your personal preference (gasp). I'll be dropping a comprehensive article on this and other related concepts very soon. Oh way too soon, hah.

[Cynic]

Originally Posted by LisaS

Would lactose be OK? you can always use NF milk powder.

I think I may be developing an intolerance. I'm testing out some eating protocols to determine it for certain, but it's looking like I'm becoming intolerant to at least milk.

[Cynic]

Thanks gents. I did want to test honey in a orange cream workout drink. I'll get TPs protein and flavoring w/o the dex and malt and simply use honey, oats, fruit.

Jamie, I don't really know all the details. It's not my profession, but I'm learning what I can for my health. When I say sugar, I'm talking about the simple types, like glucose, dextrose, HFCS, etc.

Some superficial perusing on the net turned up that honey has unbonded glucose and fructose, but I haven't found proportions. Is the proportion aspect important? As I hear more and more from you two, I'm beginning to believe not, other than fructose is better suited for the liver.

I guess I'm simply trying to clear up some questions on sugar carbs to make better choices for myself.

[coach hale]

"Is the proportion aspect important? As I hear more and more from you two, I'm beginning to believe not, other than fructose is better suited for the liver.

I guess I'm simply trying to clear up some questions on sugar carbs to make better choices for myself."

Proportion aspect you are right on with what you said above

Sugars
New carb classification sytem Sugars as:
glucose, fructose, galactose, maltose, sucrose, lactose, trehalose, Sorbitol, Mannitol

thanks
coach hale
www.maxcondition.com

[Kevin T.]

So, looking at a PWO drink, what could you use as a carb source? Honey, oats, and fruit to throw in with some whey?

[Ian Kay]

Originally Posted by Kevin T.

So, looking at a PWO drink, what could you use as a carb source? Honey, oats, and fruit to throw in with some whey?

Sure, sounds good.

I've been using grape juice with non-flavored whey recently. For a while I was using dates and figs. I use honey on my bedtime-snack sometimes. Goes great with almonds.

I'm no pro bodybuilder or powerlifter, but I've never seen much of a difference while using dextrose vs. gatorade powder vs. grape juice vs. fruit. I have, however, felt like crap from time to time if I don't include any carbs around the workout time.

[Kevin T.]

I've always used Gatorade powder in the past and present and have had no problems with it. It could get sweet and sugary, but I've just gotten over it by drinking more water after finishing it up. Just looking to see if there was anything "better" or an alternative that could reduce the sweet sugaryness.

[Cynic]

Originally Posted by Kevin T.

I've always used Gatorade powder in the past and present and have had no problems with it. It could get sweet and sugary, but I've just gotten over it by drinking more water after finishing it up.

As Alan said to me, it's not so much that Oats and such are better. Rather, he has a problem with the belief that a PWO drink based on dex and malt is the only or even best way.

Originally Posted by Alan Aragon

I'm more a proponent of, "Carb subtypes don't matter, just get enough carbs".

While it's true that some sources are more micronutritionally dense -- and thus may be optimal from a long-term health standpoint if you consume a high amount --I don't see the grave harm in using simple sugars for convenience purposes. What I don't agree with is the common misconception that they're blanketly superior postworkout.

Just looking to see if there was anything "better" or an alternative that could reduce the sweet sugaryness.

Oats and honey?

Don't get me wrong, I have dex and malt and I use Surge at present. However, once I use all this stuff up, it's honey, oats, perhaps some hershey's choco syrup.

[Kevin T.]

I think for the most part, then, I'll stick with the Gatorade and whey. It's just so easy and convenient. I'll definitely keep other alternatives in mind to change things up when I get bored.

[Lost Dog]

I understand that the studies (that show lots of high gi carbs and protein are good for us) are bad, because they were done on people in a fasted state. But, that doesn't mean that it's not better to have high gi carbs with your protein, does it?

I pretty much just eat food before and after a workout. I only have pwo drinks when I know I won't have food for a while. I'd like my method to be just as good as Surge or Gatorade and whey, but "those studies were crap" isn't proof or even evidence, it's just introducing doubt. Where can we read or hear about any comparisons?

I don't really need studies, since I doubt they would exist (what whole food manufacturer wants to prove that oatmeal is as good as dextrose and would fund such a study?). Anecdotal evidence from training clients with various methods is cool.

Also, on the honey vs. dextrose. Just go with convenience. How the heck is honey ever going to dissolve in a cold drink? We're talking about a relatively trivial amount of "sugar" in the pwo period, the lack of micronutrients in dextrose or table sugar, compared to honey, is nothing.

For that matter, just down your whey and eat a banana. Why does the "shake" have to be one thing? How about a thermos full of warm oatmeal? With a cup of cottage cheese or some greek yogurt. That sounds pretty good right now.

[Ian Kay]

Originally Posted by Lost Dog

How about a thermos full of warm oatmeal? With a cup of cottage cheese or some greek yogurt.

I think I'd puke if I wolfed that down after lifting (not to mention what would happen if I had that pre- or during! Hahaha!)

[Lost Dog]

Originally Posted by Ian Kay

I think I'd puke if I wolfed that down after lifting (not to mention what would happen if I had that pre- or during! Hahaha!)

You pussies with your weak stomachs.