Low cals and working out.... (revisited)

[kfisherx]

I am very basically confused in all the data that exists today with respect to this subject. At its core level the weight thing really is about simple Math right?

I am 130 or so pounds right now and eating about 1400 cals a day. I workout (instense cardio or lifting) at least 6 hours a week. Conservately I burn 500 cals per workout. Given this algorithm I am getting a net cal input of 1100 cals a day.

My RDM is about 1400 cals a day so I am curently loosing a bit less than a pound a week.

Simple Math right. It is working per plan.

Here is the tricky part.....

I have a high body fat levels and I want to drop them in the most efficient way. If I starve myself I risk having my body fight against me as it will store fat.

I am driking 1+ gal of water a day. I am eating very low amounts of fat and sodium in my diet and ensuring 150g of protein per day. Otherwise I am eating carbs, meats veges and fruits as they fit into those criteria.

I see all these calculators that suggest I need to be eating 2200-2400 cals a day in order to maintain my body weight. That is a huge delta from my 1400 and it doesn't seem to add up.

My questions specifically are....
1. Will my current path put my body into starvation or "store fat" mode?
2. Does it make sense to drop weight/fat first and then build muscle if my intent or goal is to loose body fat bot weight or does it make better sense to increase muscle first?

Thanks in advance,
Karla

[Leigh P.]

[quote=kfisherx;467799]

I am very basically confused in all the data that exists today with respect to this subject. At its core level the weight thing really is about simple Math right?

Nope, sadly it isn't, WEIGHT is never as simple as that.

I am 130 or so pounds right now and eating about 1400 cals a day. I workout (instense cardio or lifting) at least 6 hours a week. Conservately I burn 500 cals per workout. Given this algorithm I am getting a net cal input of 1100 cals a day.

How tall are you?

I have a high body fat levels and I want to drop them in the most efficient way.

What is it and how are you measuring this?

I am driking 1+ gal of water a day. I am eating very low amounts of fat and sodium in my diet and ensuring 150g of protein per day.

You just listed one of your problems right here. Low fat and altered electrolytes balance is a big key to hindering hormone function and dropping excess water weight.

FOR ALL THOSE READING YOU NEED SODIUM IN YOUR DIET. And a damn good amount of it if training.

I see all these calculators that suggest I need to be eating 2200-2400 cals a day in order to maintain my body weight. That is a huge delta from my 1400 and it doesn't seem to add up.

What do you do in a day?

1. Will my current path put my body into starvation or "store fat" mode?

This "mode" is complicated, your path isn't a good one. Let's get to your answers to my questions first.

2. Does it make sense to drop weight/fat first and then build muscle if my intent or goal is to loose body fat bot weight or does it make better sense to increase muscle first?

If you need to drop fat, drop fat. More so if you aren't going to eat much, get the not eating out of the way. Then go back to eating and enjoying life and worry about making small muscle gains later.

[kfisherx]

[quote=Leigh P.;467816]

Originally Posted by kfisherx

Nope, sadly it isn't, WEIGHT is never as simple as that.

How tall are you?

What is it and how are you measuring this?
You just listed one of your problems right here. Low fat and altered electrolytes balance is a big key to hindering hormone function and dropping excess water weight.

FOR ALL THOSE READING YOU NEED SODIUM IN YOUR DIET. And a damn good amount of it if training.

What do you do in a day?

This "mode" is complicated, your path isn't a good one. Let's get to your answers to my questions first.

If you need to drop fat, drop fat. More so if you aren't going to eat much, get the not eating out of the way. Then go back to eating and enjoying life and worry about making small muscle gains later.

1. I am 5' 4.5" tall
2. My body fat percent was measured by my trainer at 31% a few weeks ago. He used the Durnin/Womersley four-site test.
3. Hmmm... My trainer says that sodium raises blood pressure so try to keep it around 1300 or so a day.
4. I have posted my diet and training logs. The training part is the section at the top. I do about 3-4 hours of cardio a week and then Personal training 2 more times a week. I do spinning and running and eliptical. Index of /msc Besides that I have a farm and lift hay, scoop stalls, push wheel barrows, chop wood etc for another 30-60 min a day. Outside of that I sit at a desk.

Just a bit of history here. I am a hard core NON eater. I have eaten one meal a day for as long as I can remember (I think this started when I was about 7 and I am 44 now) and only in the past 1.5 years have I been getting a decent number of meals and cals in. So if I left this alone or listened (AKA go about enjoying life) to what my body wants I would eat about 900 cal a day and in 1-2 meals. Honestly I hate to stop and eat. I am a classic type A person. Even when I sit I never sit still.

[Leigh P.]

1. I am 5' 4.5" tall
2. My body fat percent was measured by my trainer at 31% a few weeks ago. He used the Durnin/Womersley four-site test.

I would love to see picture, you could send them privately if desire by PM if you didn't want to disply them on a public forum, but I highly doubt at 5'4.5 and 130 pounds that you are 31% body fat. Any trainer that would tell you that is someone I already would be fishy about. More than likely you have excess water and that can indeed throw off readings but still there is error in that measurement I would bet on it even with your history.

3. Hmmm... My trainer says that sodium raises blood pressure so try to keep it around 1300 or so a day.

1300? That's ridiculous. And yes it can raise blood pressure and we need a healthy raise in blood pressure. 1300 isn't going to cover daily stresses let alone exercising. Too low of blood pressure constantly can be just as bad as too high blood pressure constantly. Tell you trainer to have a look at electrolyte balance and exercise.

4. I have posted my diet and training logs. The training part is the section at the top. I do about 3-4 hours of cardio a week and then Personal training 2 more times a week. I do spinning and running and eliptical. Index of /msc Besides that I have a farm and lift hay, scoop stalls, push wheel barrows, chop wood etc for another 30-60 min a day. Outside of that I sit at a desk.

I mean exercise movement, no matter what it is doesn't mean anything if you aren't backing it up with the right diet. I am short on time so I gave a SHORT scan and saw basic movements, but movement and mixed with your daily activity that I wouldn't have you do with more calories.

Just a bit of history here. I am a hard core NON eater. I have eaten one meal a day for as long as I can remember (I think this started when I was about 7 and I am 44 now) and only in the past 1.5 years have I been getting a decent number of meals and cals in. So if I left this alone or listened (AKA go about enjoying life) to what my body wants I would eat about 900 cal a day and in 1-2 meals. Honestly I hate to stop and eat. I am a classic type A person. Even when I sit I never sit still.

Well its your choice then really. From experiance I have had roughly this same conversation about 1000 times. Some take the advice, most don't. Problem is it isn't easy advice and usually needs to come with a full on consulting/therapy sessions 7 days a week by email. The short of it is...

-At the very least get some healthy carbs and mineral balance in your diet, don't cut out calcium, sodium, potatssium etc. You need these things and its pure crap to not take in sodium.
-Don't be loyal to a trainer for the sake of it. I would personally move on to someone else of just keep him for training and research nutrition better on your on.
-Focus on proper rest and relaxing. See if you can find some activities that allow you to actually sit still but maybe being occupied in your mind but allowing your body to rest. I can assure you that it needs it. You my dear could use with a massage.
-Think of changing your outlook, do some research on nutrition, don't believe everything you read and I would make my overall goal to be to increase caloric intake, lower daily body and mental stress and follow and moderate lifting and aerobic program.

[kfisherx]

Originally Posted by Leigh P.

I

1. would love to see picture, you could send them privately if desire by PM if you didn't want to disply them on a public forum, but I highly doubt at 5'4.5 and 130 pounds that you are 31% body fat. Any trainer that would tell you that is someone I already would be fishy about. More than likely you have excess water and that can indeed throw off readings but still there is error in that measurement I would bet on it even with your history.



2. 1300? That's ridiculous. And yes it can raise blood pressure and we need a healthy raise in blood pressure. 1300 isn't going to cover daily stresses let alone exercising. Too low of blood pressure constantly can be just as bad as too high blood pressure constantly. Tell you trainer to have a look at electrolyte balance and exercise.



3. I mean exercise movement, no matter what it is doesn't mean anything if you aren't backing it up with the right diet. I am short on time so I gave a SHORT scan and saw basic movements, but movement and mixed with your daily activity that I wouldn't have you do with more calories.



4. Well its your choice then really. From experiance I have had roughly this same conversation about 1000 times. Some take the advice, most don't. Problem is it isn't easy advice and usually needs to come with a full on consulting/therapy sessions 7 days a week by email. The short of it is...

-At the very least get some healthy carbs and mineral balance in your diet, don't cut out calcium, sodium, potatssium etc. You need these things and its pure crap to not take in sodium.
-Don't be loyal to a trainer for the sake of it. I would personally move on to someone else of just keep him for training and research nutrition better on your on.
-Focus on proper rest and relaxing. See if you can find some activities that allow you to actually sit still but maybe being occupied in your mind but allowing your body to rest. I can assure you that it needs it. You my dear could use with a massage.
-Think of changing your outlook, do some research on nutrition, don't believe everything you read and I would make my overall goal to be to increase caloric intake, lower daily body and mental stress and follow and moderate lifting and aerobic program.

1. You and I agree completely on this item. I was suspect right away about this measurement. Refer to this post on this topic. At the time I was 4.5 pounds higher but still...

BMI of 23 and 31% body fat?? Possible?

I will be happy to post pics as I have been taking them every week now just for the records. Sure it is embarassing but it might be a good learning experience for someone else. I will do this later this evening when I get back to the PC where the pics are stored.

2. I agree 1300 mg is ridiculous and it also is not really possible as there is so much sodium in foods in general wether or not I add salt. I will check again with him today to see if I didn't get that number wrong. If I am not mistaken I take in an average of 2000 mg or more a day just in general consumption. From my research an athlete needs at least 2300 mg a day and salt does not raise blood pressure to bad levels in normal people. Reducing salt will reduce pressure in people with high blood pressure but even that isn't a silver bullet. From what I can figure too little salt is WAY WAY worse than too much. BTW: I just took my stats here at work on the machine and I have 102/78 BP with a HR of 58. (hardly a high BP risk)

3. I guess I still don't get this.

4. My choice is to get educated and to make changes. That is why I am here. I don't believe I am a hard case anymore as I have done a lot of groundwork for the changes already. I do not ever have loyalty for loyalty's sake to any professional. I do not expect my trainer to be a nutrition expert either though it would be nice. Nutrition is a BIG subject and a specialty. I will continue to seek truth in that area with or without him and allow him to teach me how to workout. With respect to lifestyle changes I am making them. For the past 1.5 years I have been teaching myself to eat and I have been working on relaxing for about 10 years now. I have taken up classical guitar and it is my 1-2 hours of body down time every day. I am making great strides and still don't like massage but do well with accupunture.


BTW: I sent you an email 3 weeks back asking if you would be willing to do a private phone consultation RE this topic as I do not want to take advantage of your time. I love your blog and respect what you say on this subject. My interest is to get the facts fast and right the first time this time. I have been doing it wrong for long enough. Do you do this sort of thing? If so please return my email and let me know how to make this happen.

With appreciation,
-Karla

[UConnJulie]

Karla,

At this point, don't make it more difficult than you have to ... but trust there are a whole host of reasons why you need to eat more (hormone production, bone production/regeneration, metabolism stimulation, etc).

Follow the simple rules ...
*Eat 5-6 small meals per day.
*Each meal has protein, REAL carbs (unprocessed whole foods like sweet potato, brown rice, fruit, quinoa, etc), fibrous veggies, and some healthy fats.
*Eat until you are satisfied but not stuffed.
*Eat even if you are not "hungry" every 3 hours or so. If you have only been eating one meal per day for 30+ years, then your body no longer sends out reliable hunger signals.

Remember that a "meal" might be a small can of tuna, mixed with some high quality mayo and chopped onions, spread on a slice of Ezekiel bread, and a cup of crudite (cut up raw veggies) on the side, . Or it might be 2 hard boiled eggs, a sliced tomato, and a handful of grapes. Each meal doesn't need to be restaurant dinner portion sized!!

Sodium is needed, especially if you are sweating a whole lot. If you aren't eating a lot of processed foods or dumping a ton on each meal, I wouldn't stress over it.

Fluid retention in females is often more about hormone balance (specifically estrogen/progesterone ratio).

I would also be cautious about very low dietary fat levels. Dietary fat does not make you fat. Just like dietary cholesterol does not elevate serum cholesterol levels. Fat is necessary (especially at our stage of life) for hormone production. If you are looking to lose fat, then limiting saturated fat might be beneficial, but otherwise eat plenty of healthy plant-based fats.

I KNOW that all the dietary information out there is confusing ... but you are doing the right things. Ask questions, read, learn. For some people, it takes a lot of experimentation to find what works best for their individual constitution. Don't be afraid to try something for a few weeks, then re-evaluate and see where it is taking you (ie toward your goal or away from it).

[kfisherx]

Thanks a million for jumping in here. I am eating exactly as you say right now with respect to 5-7 small meals. I am getting 1400 cals in a day. Those meals consist of protein, carb, fiber (veg) at a minimum. I get fat in meat such as in the roast beef that I made but other than that I eat fat free stuff (cottage cheese and yogurt) I have been eating more regularly and refining my diet for 1.5 years so I am getting the hang of it.

Interesting adder to this story. I just returned from my trainer. I weighed in and only lost 1 lb from 3 weeks ago. I weighed in at 33.5 lbs. We did fat testing and I am now at 25.5 %. This means I lost 7.5 lbs of fat in 3 weeks. Obviously since I did not loose 7.5 actual pounds I am also gaining muscle. And I am convinced that the fat measurements are more accurate now. We did the pinch and also the machine (it is a little hand held thing). Both of them showed the percentages within 1% of each other. I really do have that much fat on my body.

So now I am back to the drawing board. Is 1400 cal enough for a person of my size if I am in exercise 4-6 times a week (1 hour intense workout)? If I am loosing fat and gaining muscle isn't that a good sign? If I increased my cals wouldn't that just make me bigger as opposed to leaner? I already have some really nice muscle definition but I would like the fat around my abs to disappear (it is going away nicely btw) and for my abs to have more definition to them (they are starting to show more as well).

This all doesn't add up. It seems like my path is working but too many sources say that I need to consume about 500 more cals a day to do what I am doing safely.

[UConnJulie]

Honestly, I wouldn't focus on the calories ... I would focus on improving the quality of the nutrients you are eating. Don't eat that fat free crap ... it is full of preservatives and fillers to give it better "mouth feel". If you want to stick with fat free or reduced fat dairy products, then be sure to add in some full-fat real olive oil salad dressing, avocados, olives, etc. But once you start reading labels, you'll see how much extra "stuff" is in the fat-free versions ... stuff you can't pronounce and don't necessarily want to be putting into your body!! Don't go crazy with it, but having some added in fat can be very beneficial, especially for women as it is very important for hormone production.

If you increase your calories, of the right type of calorie, you are just going to get your body working more efficiently. Clearly you are not a couch slug, so the increased boost to your metabolism could/should reap more benefits. Unfortunately, the calories in/calories out thing is not always accurate.

[Leigh P.]

1. Sorry for missing your message, I get a lot of inquires and sometimes they just get lost in the shuffle, I assure it wasn't seen and ignored. If still interested in any personal conversation just send me your email in a PM and I will give you any info you may need.

2. I think Julie made some great points. I agree 100% with using common sense, not over complicating things and doing only what you need. My only add is I would focus on the calories as well as the nutrient in the overall, energy needs are important.

3. That sounds like a much healthier measurement, not to say that you haven't had loss of fat in 3 weeks but losing 7.5 lbs of pure fat and gaining that kind of muscle in 3 weeks...well I've never seen that in a women your size before. More than likely the first measurements were very off. I actually think a 1lb loss in 3 weeks at your size is pretty normal, if not good actually.

I personally think you are on the right track, I don't really think you need to change much except for to slowly increase you nutrient variety and caloric intake overtime. The slower you implement these changes usually the better as far as mental happiness goes.

There is tons of science involved here about getting your appetite back, how to tell when your hormones have started to regulate, how long that can take depending on all kinds of things. It's involved and heavy to type but if you have any specifics I have no problem answering nor do others like Julie here (some great posting Julie) and like I said you can shoot me a PM anytime.

[kfisherx]

Ladies I very much appreciate all your kind advice. Leigh I have sent PM and look forward to learning more. I am a newbie but my mind and ears are open! -Karla