Low calorie diets and vigorous lifting

[Steve-O-68]

Start rant
I've noticed something that I thought wouldn't happen around here because most folks here are smarter than the average dieter. While poking through the workout logs, I've noticed several people on low calorie diets (1100-1400 a day range) who are also doing some pretty intense workouts.

Given the amount of knowledge and info that's shared here, why are there still folks who think they don't need to eat an amount that's proportionate to their energy expenditure? Are any of these people (you know who you are) calculating your BMR and taking that into account? Am I missing something?

I'd never have one of my clients eating that little, especially considering the types of workouts I put them through.

End rant.

[Leigh P.]

To me Steve you just pointed out the "Pink Elephant". I have voiced the same concerns and agree. That being said fear can drive you harder than training. I can think of a handful of people I would put on my repair program, H.E.L.L. was largely inspired from one log here in particular.

It is a hard battle to win, my day is filled with trying to get people to eat more.

All I can say is, train hard, eat harder.

[Steve-O-68]

Originally Posted by Leigh P.

All I can say is, train hard, eat harder.

Absolutely! Heck, my lunch today had more cals than others eat all day! I know my goals are different, but regardless of the goal, you still gotta stoke the fire if you want to keep it burning.

[Chris Correia]

So, Leigh, what do you recommend? Any hints/suggestions on matching the in and out?

I often hit stalling points/plateaus during dieting. Sometimes when I've stalled, I eat 500 or more additional cals for a few days, and THEN I lose a couple of pounds. And I never go very low, rarely under 1,800 cals.

[RobLL]

I started adding more mayo and butter and nuts. 5-10 pounds off. Diabetics have to watch protein because it too likes to turn into glucose at higher levels.

[OldGuy]

I can't speak for other but I know that intense workouts make me want to eat. When I was doing HT1 I was eating like I was going to the chair. And I couldn't help, it the workouts fed my hunger.

[Steve-O-68]

I like to get them eating at maintenance, and let the workout provide the calorie deficit. Once progress stalls, I'll switch to their current maintenance needs (cuz what was maintenance before isn't maintenance now). That usually does the trick. (Usually, but not always. May need to add/subtract some cals as needed, but usually no more than 250 a day at a time).

[Leigh P.]

Originally Posted by Chris Correia

So, Leigh, what do you recommend? Any hints/suggestions on matching the in and out?

I often hit stalling points/plateaus during dieting. Sometimes when I've stalled, I eat 500 or more additional cals for a few days, and THEN I lose a couple of pounds. And I never go very low, rarely under 1,800 cals.

Basically my biggest "hint" in general is to not be a serial dieter and if you find you fall into that category, it might be time to look and how well you know you body. The key to having the best fat loss is to understand your daily caloric needs.

I did a 3 part series on calculating fat loss.

The Fat Loss Troubleshooter: Calculating Fat Loss (Part 1)
The Fat Loss Troubleshooter: Calculating Fat Loss (Part 2)
The Fat Loss Troubleshooter: Calculating Fat Loss (Part 3)

I feel it helps those without aid of technology to figure out in a full proof manner how to understand your activity level.

If you are a serial dieter, yet you take a few months to truly understand your activity level and feed that level, you will 9/10 never have a problem losing fat again and really be able to toy and tweak your body comp. The average person doesn't want to take the time and the average female trainee is too scared.

Now let's say you have figured out your level, how do we not mess it up?

-Don't train to hard or eat too low
-Take regular dieting breaks where you eat at maintenance for at least a week.
-Sleep, hydrate, rest and repeat
-Don't cut carbs unless you have to
-Bounce caloric intake with activity
-Out just of a high focus on general movement as aggressive training. What good is busting your butt at the gym for a quick 35 min workout if the rest of the night you can't do anything but lay on the couch, therefore lowering you remainder of activity level.

A big problem right now is highly intense workouts with low calories, its stupid. If you are going to train really hard, you need to eat and repair hard.

Case Client-Fat loss needed, moderate active level job
Geoff-SW-259 pounds CW-189 (goal) 5'10, 32, Male
Length of time-6 months (70 pounds, This is biggest loser quality loss)
Caloric average first two months 3500
Caloric average next two months 3200
Caloric average last month 3000
He did a modified version of the H.E.L.L. program twice. Program consist of supersets, plyo, drills, HIIT, the works. He never dropped below 3000 calories and even with that much of a loss in BW that should give way to a metabolic drop, he still lost on 3000 caloric average.

That is the result of eating hard and training hard. Sadly I have to twist peoples arm to do so, even turn people away because they wont.

[Chris Correia]

Good stuff, Leigh. Gee, you're really smart and cute, to boot.

Even though I'm not really lean, wherever I try to lighten up intake/lean out more, I notice I'm just not as strong, nor necessarily as fast/quick, nor have much energy, as when I'm a bit heavier. As a martial artist, I ultimately want better performance and energy, rather than curb appeal, even if I don't get below high teens % bf. I often find I can move faster and perform better at high teens bf than when I drop 8 or 10 pounds.

I've got a wife who loves me and students and peers who respect and admire me. I guess I don't have to get hung up on trying to get a beach body at 47 years old.

Then again, it might just be my having a hard time balancing caloric requirements. Part of it is never being really sure how hard I am working in a day/in a given workout, or how hard I will be working later on.

I just skimmed your articles, but I'll get back to those. That might just be the process I need to figure stuff out. Nothing wrong with performing well and being a bit more sexy.

[Frank.S]

I always am curious to where people figure out the amount of calories they want to eat every day. Almost always, when dieting, people put it to low And when trying to gain muscle, again, to low. How people came up with these numbers, who knows.

Dieting is not my best thing, I can eat cheeseburgers all day and if I ate every meal til i was 'full' id loose weight, fast. Got to force feed every damn meal unfortunatley. If I ate 1400cals per day (5-6x bw) id probally just die. :p I think there are alot more people out there like me, they just dont generally come to 'diet' sections of websites because, they are skinny and 'diets' are for fat people.

[Victoria]

So, let's say I totally get the message, and I buy into it: Train hard, eat harder. And, that is my current goal. But, I struggle to eat the appropriate amount of calories, mostly because I just don't have an appetite and I don't find food all that enjoyable.

I just don't get that hungry, and when I do, it only takes a small amount of food for me to feel uninterested again, and by then I'm on the verge of gagging if I take another bite. Some days I'm able to eat enough to hit my calories, and other days it's a real struggle.

What are some things I can do to "trick" or convince myself into eating. What are some ways I can get those calories I need (2000-2400/day) without it being a miserable experience? Is it a habit that will take time to develop? Is it a mental shift that needs to happen? I'm currently following Plan A of TNT. Honestly, if I could get all my calories and nutrition from a pill a day, I would!

[Chris Correia]

Victoria, there are two suggestions that come immediately to mind:

1. Calorie dense foods. Oils, nuts, peanuts/butter, somewhat fatty proteins (meats, cheese). Practically everyone can use more olive oils and nuts/oils in their diet.

2. Liquid supplementation with something like Muscle Milk.

[Leigh P.]

Originally Posted by Victoria

So, let's say I totally get the message, and I buy into it: Train hard, eat harder. And, that is my current goal. But, I struggle to eat the appropriate amount of calories, mostly because I just don't have an appetite and I don't find food all that enjoyable.

I just don't get that hungry, and when I do, it only takes a small amount of food for me to feel uninterested again, and by then I'm on the verge of gagging if I take another bite. Some days I'm able to eat enough to hit my calories, and other days it's a real struggle.

What are some things I can do to "trick" or convince myself into eating. What are some ways I can get those calories I need (2000-2400/day) without it being a miserable experience? Is it a habit that will take time to develop? Is it a mental shift that needs to happen? I'm currently following Plan A of TNT. Honestly, if I could get all my calories and nutrition from a pill a day, I would!

There are a few questions I would have before giving a direct answer.

Are you limiting your carb intake to lower calories fruits and veggies (no starch?)

Do you get full, or just lose your appetite?

Previous to TNT, have you been eating a diet high in low caloric fruit/veggie, lean protein, poly/mono fats?

[Ian Kay]

Take Chris's two suggestions and combine them:

Make a shake with:
1 medium banana
2 tablespoons peanut butter
30-40g chocolate whey protein

Drink half of it sometime in the first part of the day, the second half later on. It'll boost your intake by about 500 cals or so, and give you lots of protein, fats and some good carbs. Potassium and fiber too.

It's a lot easier to down half of a pb-chocloate shake than chew down whole foods.

[Victoria]

Originally Posted by Chris Correia

Victoria, there are two suggestions that come immediately to mind:

1. Calorie dense foods. Oils, nuts, peanuts/butter, somewhat fatty proteins (meats, cheese). Practically everyone can use more olive oils and nuts/oils in their diet.

2. Liquid supplementation with something like Muscle Milk.

Luckily, TNT is basically made up of foods like these. So, I'm already eating in that manner. I'm not familiar with Muscle Milk, but I do drink PP with a scoop of peanut butter and even a little cream. Makes it more appetizing.

Originally Posted by Ian Kay

Take Chris's two suggestions and combine them:

Make a shake with:
1 medium banana
2 tablespoons peanut butter
30-40g chocolate whey protein

Drink half of it sometime in the first part of the day, the second half later on. It'll boost your intake by about 500 cals or so, and give you lots of protein, fats and some good carbs. Potassium and fiber too.

It's a lot easier to down half of a pb-chocloate shake than chew down whole foods.

I've been thinking about how I could take in some of my meals in liquid form when solid foods just aren't appealing to me. But, TNT Plan A does not include fruits. Argh!

Originally Posted by Leigh P.

There are a few questions I would have before giving a direct answer.

Are you limiting your carb intake to lower calories fruits and veggies (no starch?)

TNT limits carb intake. No fruit, no starchy carbs. But, there are plenty of high-cal foods in there.

Here's a quick list of acceptable foods on Plan A:

THE FAT-BURNING TIME ZONE FOODS
High-Quality Protein
Low-Starch Vegetables
Natural Fats

Beef
Artichokes
Mushrooms
Avocadoes
Cheese
Asparagus
Onions
Butter
Eggs
Broccoli
Peppers
Coconut
Fish
Brussels Sprouts
Spinach
Cream
Pork
Cauliflower
Tomatoes
Nuts and Seeds
Poultry
Celery
Turnips
Olives, Olive oil, and Canola Oil
Whey and Casein Protein
Cucumbers
Zucchini
Sour Cream

Do you get full, or just lose your appetite?

Both. I get full very quickly, and as the day progresses, my appetite decreases. Dinner is the most difficult.

Previous to TNT, have you been eating a diet high in low caloric fruit/veggie, lean protein, poly/mono fats?

Prior to TNT I was following PN. So, more fruits, and starchy carbs only around workouts. I don't think TNT is all that different from PN, except for the bigger limitation on carbs by avoiding fruits and starchy stuff.

[Leigh P.]

Originally Posted by Victoria

Both. I get full very quickly, and as the day progresses, my appetite decreases. Dinner is the most difficult.

Sorry, just one more question.

Can you please describe full to me. Here is what I mean...

Full#1-Slight expansion of in your waist, feeling of nourished. End of the night you feel as if there just inst much room left.

Full#2-More defined and noticeable expansion of waist and stomach area, feeling of "stuffed", little to no roo