Diet, Nutrition and SupplementationPost here for supplement reviews or nutritional advice. If you're trying to get "ripped abz" THIS is where you should be.
To Alan Aragon and others:
With low carb diets like TNT and the Anabolic Diet you're supposed to limit any carb intake to a max of two days per week, even whole grains and fruits. Many have also said that these diets could be viewed as simply a lifestyle change, meaning that you could do them indefinitely.
Is it less than optimal to limit your intake of carbs (even "good" carbs like berries, yams, quinoa, etc) to just two days per week in the long term?
Does that allow the dieter to consume enough of the vitamins and minerals that you can't easily get from veggies, meat and dairy? Are you able to absorb all of the nutrients and fiber in that short time? Any benefit to having them spread out over the week?
This is not a criticism of TNT, by the way. Far from it. In fact, I'm having such great success with it, that I'm looking to base my eating on it for the foreseeable future!
I don't think anyone can really answer your less than optimal question, assuming you mean for overall health and longevity. No one has studied such diets long-term, so you have to draw on research from populations consuming other types of diets. Certainly there seems to be benefit from higher consumption of produce, and of course, in TNT, we recommend that you eat several servings of vegetables every day.
But you don't have to exclude fruit or even grains to just 2 days week in TNT. You can have them every day by using the concepts to create a plan you're comfortable with for long-term health and success. Plus, depending on the "plan" you're on, you could certainly enjoy these foods around your workout without even tweaking the basic templates we laid out.
Remember that we created the plans and guidelines in TNT as templates for specific goals, and with simplicity in mind, but also wanted to base the foundation of the plan on the protocols Jeff has used in his research--which has shown short-term health benefits.
Last edited by Adam Campbell : 11-09-2007 at 10:51 AM.
That's just it...I'm not "comfortable" with any particular amount of carbs each day. But I want to have as much as I can without gaining fat, so I was looking for strategies to safely add them back in.
Lots of people have recommendations like "have carbs early in the day, or have carbs with protein and avoid carbs with fats." Have any opinion about the validity o fthese types of recommendations? or any recommendations of your own?
Adam: Enormous kudos on TNT...it's a great product! It (and its predecessor, "Adam's Diet") has changed the way I approach nutrition. I'm so glad that we have someone at a mainstream health magazine like MH who isn't afraid to tell it like it is, without being overly rigid or gimmicky.
How many carbs you have depends on what your total cals from other sources are. You can have all carbs and lose weight if cal deficit is created (this has been established in tons of Primary Research Data)
There are no magic macro levels that determine fat loss. Now keep in mind there is a difference when you consider absolute weight loss or fat loss. With a low carb diet in the early stages you can expect a fair amount of weight loss to be contributed to water loss. As far as fat oxidation you can only oxidize so much fat per unit of time.
To give a definite answer concerning the best diet, best carb level and so on is impossible and depends on numerous factors.
With that being said some people do seem to function better on a low carb diet while others function better on a high carb diet (refer to The Practical Scientist 3 The Practical Scientist 3 | Mind and Muscle
That's another good answer by the great Coach Hale. I also like Alan's take that you should eat as many carbs as you can and still lose fat.
I think mixing carbs with protein and fat is a good strategy because 1) it slows the absorption of glucose into your bloodstream (helping to prevent "sugar crashes" in those who have some insulin resistance), and 2) it actually reduces carb intake to a reasonable level automatically for a given calorie intake. For example, you could have a whole potato by itself for X calories, or you could have a smaller portion of potato with some sour cream for the same number of calories. It may not make any difference in terms of fat loss, but the latter may make you feel more satisfied with less fluctuation in blood sugar--which could lead to consuming fewer calories overall, and thus, more fat loss. Of course, you'll hear that fat and carbs eaten together is bad, but it's about context--eat too much fat and carbs together and it's bad. Don't overeat and it's not. We observed this in the Testosterone Advantage Plan.
I think a lot of it also depends on how you feel after meals and on a daily basis. Any diet can lead to success, but the one that you can stick to will be the healthiest for the long-term, probably no matter how many or how few carbs/fruit/grains/[insert whatever food you want here] it has.
I think we outline in the book pretty well when we eat think the best time to eat carbs (ie when glycogen levels are reduced). You can pretty well figure that out by knowing it's around your workout, and in relation to other meals.
There's really no mystery--carbs can be eaten all the time, but the question is, does limiting your intake of carbs (so that you don't overeat) become harder depending on the amount and the source? And metabolically-speaking, how well does your body tolerate them? (Again, not overdoing it with reasonable overall calorie intake is your first line of defense, so what helps you best do that?)
Last edited by Adam Campbell : 11-09-2007 at 02:20 PM.
Reason: wanted to
I plan to stick with one of the TNT plans until I get to a bodyfat level that I'm happy with, then slowly add more carbs back in and see what happens. I suppose the best place to start (besides pre and post workout and my Reloading days) is the next whole food meal right after my post workout shake. One additional bonus: I exercise first thing in the morning so my carb intake will be weighted toward morning, when glycogen levels are lower.
I still have several weeks/months of strict TNT-ing before any of that happens, anyway.
To Alan Aragon and others:
With low carb diets like TNT and the Anabolic Diet you're supposed to limit any carb intake to a max of two days per week, even whole grains and fruits. Many have also said that these diets could be viewed as simply a lifestyle change, meaning that you could do them indefinitely.
Is it less than optimal to limit your intake of carbs (even "good" carbs like berries, yams, quinoa, etc) to just two days per week in the long term?
Does that allow the dieter to consume enough of the vitamins and minerals that you can't easily get from veggies, meat and dairy? Are you able to absorb all of the nutrients and fiber in that short time? Any benefit to having them spread out over the week?
This is not a criticism of TNT, by the way. Far from it. In fact, I'm having such great success with it, that I'm looking to base my eating on it for the foreseeable future!
This really depends on your current activity level & bodycomp status - basically, are you a competitive soccer player, or are you a regular guy who gets most of his cardio hitting a pose or to before hitting the shower (oh shit just gave away my top secret regimen). Very low-carb dieting & cyclical low-carb dieting are good "intevention" tools, especially for overweight, obese, & pre-diabetic folks wthout a lot of disposable training time. 2 carb-ups per week will fulfill the needs of most folks who don't do a lot of glycogen-depleting work. As for long-term health & the omission of "good" carbs, the body is a lot smater than needing stuff like quinoa to live to a ripe old age. To reiterate what Adam & Jamie said, thermodynamics aside, individuals deal with carbs quite differently, so it's a matter of personal trial. My objective with clients is to find the threshold of the maximum amount of carbs that still allows them to make bodycomp progress. Some need to low-carb it most of the time, others thrive on much more.
So what I'm hearing from all of you is that:
1) If I train a max of 5-6 hours per week I'm not at a level where I need more than one or two carb-up days to replenish glycogen stores.
2) As long as I'm eating veggies galore and good carbs (as well as pizza and beer) on my carb-up days, I'm not missing out on any micronutrients or other health benefits from whole grains, fruit, legumes, etc.
3) If my primary goal is to gain muscle mass, and I'm already eating sufficient protein, I can experiment with adding back some good carbs.
My plan is to stick with TNT until I'm down to approx. 10% bodyfat (I'm currently about 15%) then try to bulk up. I have 8lbs of fat to lose to get to 10% so this phase might take 4 months or more.
In terms of allocating macros across a day, a ballpark 1.0g/lb of bodyweight average over a week's span hits most recreational trainees needs assuming ~ 5 - 6 hours of weekly exercise. You can halve your carb intake on non-training days and bump them up on hard training days to hit that average. That gives you sufficient room for protein (anywhere from 1.0-1.5g/lb of bodyweight) and fat (0.4-0.5g/lb of bodyweight).
Personally, I'm not a big fan of dumping in tons of protein or fat at the expense of carbs. Caloric intake is primary in gaining or losing fat/bodyweight overall. I find exercise power output plummets under low-carb conditions, as does mental acuity. Again, temper with individual response and modify, but don't needlessly fear carbs.
So what I'm hearing from all of you is that:
1) If I train a max of 5-6 hours per week I'm not at a level where I need more than one or two carb-up days to replenish glycogen stores.
2) As long as I'm eating veggies galore and good carbs (as well as pizza and beer) on my carb-up days, I'm not missing out on any micronutrients or other health benefits from whole grains, fruit, legumes, etc.
3) If my primary goal is to gain muscle mass, and I'm already eating sufficient protein, I can experiment with adding back some good carbs.
My plan is to stick with TNT until I'm down to approx. 10% bodyfat (I'm currently about 15%) then try to bulk up. I have 8lbs of fat to lose to get to 10% so this phase might take 4 months or more.
Thanks to all of you for your input!
FWIW, I'd track your intake on carb up days. Once insulin gets kickin and that H000000GE serotonin rush hits, it's easy to go completely buttfluck nutz0rs with the calories. I've seen it happen time and time again where low-carb adherents blow every semblance of progress on a 10,000kcal Saturday.
For me, carb-ups and aggressive glycogen depletion/replenshiment protocols have never worked for me. My body just responds poorly to refeeds/carb-ups/cheat days etc. I prefer to spread my "junk" out across the week and fit it into my daily kcal goals rather than maintaining ascetic adherence all week long for a weekend feeding frenzy. I haven't read the TNT diet but the nutrient timing protocol, from what I recall, is solid. Moderate changes and fairly linear manipulation net the best results for myself, so don't get unnecessarily tied to a particular strategy or protocol. I vary maybe 400-600 calories between workout and non-workout days. Fundamentally, it's your responsibility to learn your body and monitor changes objectively.
FWIW, I'd track your intake on carb up days. Once insulin gets kickin and that H000000GE serotonin rush hits, it's easy to go completely buttfluck nutz0rs with the calories. I've seen it happen time and time again where low-carb adherents blow every semblance of progress on a 10,000kcal Saturday.
(raises hand sheepishly)
The only way I can control myself is to stick with very "mild" carbs. Fruit, whole wheat bread (and not that much of it), oatmeal (not too much), squash, potatoes, etc.
If I have a dessert, pizza, bagel, etc. it triggers either a physiological and/or psychological urge to eat up and up and up.
I can stop it by not starting it in the first place , going to bed, or working out.
The only way I can control myself is to stick with very "mild" carbs. Fruit, whole wheat bread (and not that much of it), oatmeal (not too much), squash, potatoes, etc.
If I have a dessert, pizza, bagel, etc. it triggers either a physiological and/or psychological urge to eat up and up and up.
I can stop it by not starting it in the first place , going to bed, or working out.
Took me four years and contact with Alan to get over that kind of behavior.
So, I get up in the middle of the night here, can't sleep, go online for a bit, read/skim, and what I combined/associated is Roland's sig line "On you, wet is my favorite color." and Lisa's reply, above, and think .
So, I get up in the middle of the night here, can't sleep, go online for a bit, read/skim, and what I combined/associated is Roland's sig line "On you, wet is my favorite color." and Lisa's reply, above, and think .
Is there a picture somewhere?
I'm glad I can provide some amply endowed humor. How long do we want to keep rolling with this?
Hey, I don't want to see YOU in wet. Nor Roland. We need Lisa as part of this conversation or I'm out.
I'm starting lower carb today as part of cutting some fat. The way my meal planning works out, I will be at about 170 grams of carbs, which is about 30% of my calories. Particularly coming off some higher carb eating, I can't go lower than that without feeling crappy, and my body likes that level overall (as opposed to lower). When I go lower than that, it's tougher work, and my compliance tends to be a problem.
Blowing it with a 10,000 calorie Saturday isn't a certainty. In fact, I'd think if you were disciplined enough for low-carbing 6 days out of the week, you're disciplined enough not to go hog wild on your "cheat day." That's not to say you won't have a donut on that day, or that some people have trouble controlling themselves.
While calories in/calories out approach to fat loss works, it's not for me. First, I hate to count calories. Second, it largely ignores the hormonal response to carbs and the benefits of carb timing.
I think any of our resident diet gurus would agree that when dropping calories, carbs should be the first things to go, except maybe around your workout.
Blowing it with a 10,000 calorie Saturday isn't a certainty. In fact, I'd think if you were disciplined enough for low-carbing 6 days out of the week, you're disciplined enough not to go hog wild on your "cheat day." That's not to say you won't have a donut on that day, or that some people have trouble controlling themselves.
While calories in/calories out approach to fat loss works, it's not for me. First, I hate to count calories. Second, it largely ignores the hormonal response to carbs and the benefits of carb timing.
I think any of our resident diet gurus would agree that when dropping calories, carbs should be the first things to go, except maybe around your workout.
I think you misread my post but that's okay. Obviously carb timing is crucial. I'm in bit of a bind and would respond more cohesively. Good luck in your in endeavors!
Low Carb (like TNT or AD) Long Term -Alan?
, going to bed, or working out.
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Linear Mode
