Diet, Nutrition and SupplementationPost here for supplement reviews or nutritional advice. If you're trying to get "ripped abz" THIS is where you should be.
In one of Eric Cressey's newsletters (early Oct. I think) he wrote (or maybe he was quoting someone else?):
Quote:
1. During times of really heavy training when your joints are under higher than normal stresses I recommend that people take 1-2 baby aspirin with their fish oil each day (2-3g EPA/DHA). The combination of aspirin and fish oil causes the production of an extremely potent (and cutting edge) series of anti-inflammatory compounds called resolvins. Resolvins don't stop inflammation per se, but they accelerate the cleaning up of the damage caused by inflammation. This is extremely important because normally NSAIDs like Advil or aspirin (w/o fish oil) actually slow down this resolution phase of inflammation. The aspirin/fish oil combination will help clean up the inflammatory damage in your joints so you can keep lifting those heavy weights.” Of course, you should always check with your doctor before taking any medications.
I failed to save the link to the newsletter, so now this quote is all I have. Does anyone have that link?
What do you guys think of this advice? Would this fish oil/aspirin combination be effective after minor injuries that have caused inflammation?
Here's my specific situation. My son was playing pick-up tackle football with no pads after school on Thu. He took a blow to his quad (lateral aspect, about 1/3rd of the thigh up from his knee, about where his quad attaches on the femur) from the knee of the guy tackling him. He was out of the game immediately and limping, but no initial bruising. When he got home (roughly one hour later) swelling was evident just above his knee on both sides and across the front, but below the site of the hit. I had him elevate it, ice it, and take aspirin and fish oil. He saw the athletic trainer at school the next day who said it was a hematoma and told him to use a cryo cup for the next few days. At the high school football game last night, the athletic trainer called him into the field house to have the team doc take a look at it too. He said that if he'd seen it immediately he would have drained fluid with a needle, but by now (about 28 post injury) it was starting to coagulate and he'd just have to let it heal. Neither of them are all that worried about it. There still isn't any visible bruising, just the swelling, but the doc said he bet the bruising would still show up.
BUT my son tells them what I've been having him do and they both want more info on this fish oil/aspirin advice. They are skeptical. I really don't have any good information! Eric's newsletter isn't enough evidence for me to give them!
I debated on putting this in the injury forum, but I think we've gotten good advice on the injury. I'm hoping to discuss the usefulness of the fish oil/aspirin combination for this purpose.
That's just plain bad advice. Horrible advice, in fact (not directed at you but rather at the info in the newsletter). 1st off, the acute inflammatory response as a result of exercise is part of the natural cycle that leads to positive muscular adaptations over time (ie, muscular size, strength, endurance, etc). Suppressing postexercise inflammation isn't a good idea in the 1st place, and one could even argue that postexercise inflammation is a good thing when viewed from the standpoint of triggering protein synthesis. Speaking of which, there are a couple of detrimental effects of aspirin. It's well known that aspirin (& other NSAIDs) damage the lining of the stomach. Also, to add insult to injury, NSAIDs (including aspirin) have been seen to inhibit protein synthesis. In conclusion, why include aspirin when it can damage stomach lining & inhibit muscle protein synthesis -- all for the sake of initiating an unproductive process?? Good grief.
OK. I agree with not using any NSAID for DOMS. But what about in the case of inflmmation from a minor injury? Wouldn't this be a time when using a NSAID is appropriate? Don't we want to suppress the inflammatory response at this time? So would using aspirin and fish oil be superior to using ibuprofen?
OK. I agree with not using any NSAID for DOMS. But what about in the case of inflmmation from a minor injury? Wouldn't this be a time when using a NSAID is appropriate? Don't we want to suppress the inflammatory response at this time? So would using aspirin and fish oil be superior to using ibuprofen?
That's a question best left for a doc. Although your doc might not have a clue... I would take the conservative route & not "mix drinks". Again, hit up the doc. EDIT: I saw that the docs are skeptical & want more info. Well, I'd hit up another doc, but I bet you they'd all tell you not to do it.
OG, thanks so much for finding that study. I'm attempting to read it but it is seriously over my head!
They seem to be discussing chronic disease related to inflammatory conditions, like cardiovascular disease, rather than DOMS or swelling from minor injuries. I don't know how far we can extrapolate this information to other situations.
Alan, I'm really hoping you're going to read this study and tell us what you think!
The argument point here (in my mind) is more should this be used often in a post workout situation. In the case of your son though I see that it has purpose and promise to help. To use in training regularly I am not sold based on some things Alan stated as well as some others. As for the research here is the short of it.
Fish oil/EFA supplements has been shown in multiple studies to reduce inflammation due to prostaglandins. Prostaglandins are derived from the arachidonic acid in Omega 6 fatty acids. In this study they are showing that from eicosapentaenoic acid (from omega 3's) resolvens also give an anti-inflammatory effect.
In short what the study is saying that Resolvens stop the movement of inflammatory cells to sites of inflammation, and the turning on of other inflammatory cells. Taking a low dose of aspirin has the ability to facilitate the generation of antiinflammatory lipids from eicosapentaenoic acid and arachidonic acid. Mainly it speeds up this process through strong extraction.
You can also look at these two studies...
Serhan, C.N., and N. Chiang. 2002. Lipid-derived mediators in endogenous anti-inflammation and resolution: lipoxins and aspirin-triggered 15-epi-lipoxins. ScientificWorldJournal. 2:169–204.[Medline]
Paul-Clark, M.J., T. Van Cao, N. Moradi-Bidhendi, D. Cooper, and D.W. Gilroy. 2004. 15-epi-lipoxin A4-mediated induction of nitric oxide explains how aspirin inhibits acute inflammation. J. Exp. Med. 200:69–78
years ago I had an interesting discussion with my immun. prof about the role of histamine in response to acute injury and that maybe if you could get a fast acting anti-hist into your system around the time of an injury you might have a benefit - but you'd almost have to do it prophylactically because of the speed of the injury cascade & time needed for metab of the anti-hist. But it still would be an interesting area of research - addressing a different actor in the inflamm response. But those mast cells are fast you'd have to be right on it.
The take-away I got from that was that yes aspirin does nifty things to the COX pathways which can create some freaky DHA voodoo, but really they were just saying that EPA and DHA were pretty widely relied on by the body's inflammatory processes, and it was cool to see some novel modifications come out of it.
In general sense I agree with Alan....not something to be relied on, but in the case of acute injury...hell honestly I don't know enough to say for sure. I'd have to dig around more before I'd be able to form a more clear opinion.
ETA: I will say that aspirin (or rather acetylsalicylic acid) is somewhat different from most commonly used NSAIDS because it does seem to be one of those naturally-occurring compounds that just sorta "fits" our particular biochemistry. Not sure if that's even relevant, but yeah.
__________________
Articles | Blog | Pirate my book. "Yeah, but you did your post grad thesis on trolling, so you don't count."
-JP, endorsing how awesome I am
That's just plain bad advice. Horrible advice, in fact (not directed at you but rather at the info in the newsletter). 1st off, the acute inflammatory response as a result of exercise is part of the natural cycle that leads to positive muscular adaptations over time (ie, muscular size, strength, endurance, etc). Suppressing postexercise inflammation isn't a good idea in the 1st place, and one could even argue that postexercise inflammation is a good thing when viewed from the standpoint of triggering protein synthesis. Speaking of which, there are a couple of detrimental effects of aspirin. It's well known that aspirin (& other NSAIDs) damage the lining of the stomach. Also, to add insult to injury, NSAIDs (including aspirin) have been seen to inhibit protein synthesis. In conclusion, why include aspirin when it can damage stomach lining & inhibit muscle protein synthesis -- all for the sake of initiating an unproductive process?? Good grief.
I have been contending with a persistent case of tendinitis in my elbow since March. My doctor prescribed 15 days of naproxen. After 3 days I thought it was actually "curing" me, but the "cure" started tapering off after that. It has waxed and waned now for 8 months. My doctor referred me to an orthopedic surgeon who concluded that it wasn't really serious enough to treat with anything other than anti-inflammatories.
So I have been popping Aleve and Advil like m&m's for about 7 months -- not just for the elbow but also for arthritis in my neck, shoulder pain that I have had for over 25 years, knee pain, etc. No stomach problems except occasionally when I have taken on an empty stomach. But I do feel like my workout gains have been minimal over this period. Could the drugs possibly be an issue? And if so, do I have to make a choice between pain relief and my workout goals?
There's definitely been shown to be a negative correlation between protein synthesis and NSAIDS, due to the fact that they impair steps in the inflammation process.
I don't remember enough about glucocorticoid activity off-hand to say if they'd inhibit or assist in joint problems, but IIRC they do help subtly by modifying the COX pathway.
In any event, not something I'd want to use routinely while trying to make progress, no.
However, if it's the trade-off between chronic pain and making gains, I know which I'd likely pick (barring moments of masochism).
Slightly OT to address your tendinitis issue: it's been shown that performing eccentric actions has therapeutic effects over the short term for tendinitis. It may be worth looking into.
__________________
Articles | Blog | Pirate my book. "Yeah, but you did your post grad thesis on trolling, so you don't count."
-JP, endorsing how awesome I am
The problem with the blurb in Eric's newsletter is that it is extrapolating data and making it sound like any injury, inflammation, etc should turn to fish oil and aspirin. Your sons injury (acute trauma) is not the same as joint pain/inflammation...therefore, from the little information we have from this thread, I wouldn't combine the two. Alan did a good job explaining the basic mechanisms between the fish oil and aspirin, so I won't delve into that too far. Unfortunately email makes it impossible to "diagnose" someone/something, so it would really be wise to seek out another MD (sports med MD) who can actually look at this and determine the best approach.
Good luck!
__________________
Christopher R. Mohr, PhD, RD
Check out our NEW Grocery Shopping Made Easy DVD! www.MohrResults.com
I have been contending with a persistent case of tendinitis in my elbow since March. My doctor prescribed 15 days of naproxen. After 3 days I thought it was actually "curing" me, but the "cure" started tapering off after that. It has waxed and waned now for 8 months. My doctor referred me to an orthopedic surgeon who concluded that it wasn't really serious enough to treat with anything other than anti-inflammatories.
So I have been popping Aleve and Advil like m&m's for about 7 months -- not just for the elbow but also for arthritis in my neck, shoulder pain that I have had for over 25 years, knee pain, etc. No stomach problems except occasionally when I have taken on an empty stomach. But I do feel like my workout gains have been minimal over this period. Could the drugs possibly be an issue? And if so, do I have to make a choice between pain relief and my workout goals?
Get bloodwork dude.. You kidneys/liver must hate you by now.
1. As mentioned above, this was Mike's recommendation, not mine.
2. Mike emailed me last week to see if I'd print an update to this, as I guess he's gotten several emails inquiring about it and wanted to clarify his point. Before you read into it too much, sit tight for a few days; I'll publish it as soon as he gets it to me.
Stumbled upon this one when looking for info on histamine.
Something interesting: a lot of people still think DOMS is about an injured muscle (little tears etc) but it's more about inflammation. When my carb intake was way lower than it is now (20% of calories as opposed to 35-40% now) DOMS would never occur.
Apparently carbs stimulate your immune system...
Was pondering about this after having had an crazy itching response after eating a few slices of smoked sausage. Things finally clicked when I looked up histamines and discovered sausages are very abundant in histamine (just like fermented cheese, brewers yeast & tamari sauce) . However, I've had sausage more often in the past few years and don't recall having had such a hefty response. This very past week, carb intake have been close to 45% rather than the 35-40% I normally get.
Does it sound right to conclude that a lowered carb intake will keep allergies at bay?
For the record, I'm having a high amount of IgE and seem to be allergic/intolerant to scores of food items : gluten, dairy & cheese (both immediate & long term) , soy, peanuts, cashews, strawberries (only to fresh ones, not the frozen ones)
For today I've to using Cox2Tame (contains fish oil, willow bark/acetylsalicylic acid, GLA, curcumin & ginger) which has helped wonders in the past to stop uncontrollable itching, but I wonder if I should cut back to 35% carbs at most?
I've been having stronger lifts on more carbs but totally dislike being more susceptible to inflammatory responses or to have so much more DOMS. It's not crippling but just a very new & unusual phenomenon. While everyone 'claims' DOMS is meaningless it is quite interesting to see that somehow there's a teeny amt of muscle growth as of late while this used to be a near absent thing.. so am torn about it..
I have been contending with a persistent case of tendinitis in my elbow since March. My doctor prescribed 15 days of naproxen. After 3 days I thought it was actually "curing" me, but the "cure" started tapering off after that. It has waxed and waned now for 8 months. My doctor referred me to an orthopedic surgeon who concluded that it wasn't really serious enough to treat with anything other than anti-inflammatories.
So I have been popping Aleve and Advil like m&m's for about 7 months -- not just for the elbow but also for arthritis in my neck, shoulder pain that I have had for over 25 years, knee pain, etc. No stomach problems except occasionally when I have taken on an empty stomach. But I do feel like my workout gains have been minimal over this period. Could the drugs possibly be an issue? And if so, do I have to make a choice between pain relief and my workout goals?
I'll assume you've already done the RICE protocol? So many inflation based aches and pains can be solved just by resting and some ice. Add in some fish oil and you're good to go. IMHO, I would try to see if you can find some solutions that don't require you to pop NSAIDs like candy.
EDIT:
Just to be clear I was mainly referring to your new elbow pain. Arthritis is something that requires more, although I want to say that I've read studies of people with arthritis being helped with high dosages of fish oil.
__________________
"Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go." -- T.S. Eliot
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit."-- Aristotle
Stumbled upon this one when looking for info on histamine.
Something interesting: a lot of people still think DOMS is about an injured muscle (little tears etc) but it's more about inflammation. When my carb intake was way lower than it is now (20% of calories as opposed to 35-40% now) DOMS would never occur.
Apparently carbs stimulate your immune system...
Was pondering about this after having had an crazy itching response after eating a few slices of smoked sausage. Things finally clicked when I looked up histamines and discovered sausages are very abundant in histamine (just like fermented cheese, brewers yeast & tamari sauce) . However, I've had sausage more often in the past few years and don't recall having had such a hefty response. This very past week, carb intake have been close to 45% rather than the 35-40% I normally get.
Does it sound right to conclude that a lowered carb intake will keep allergies at bay?
For the record, I'm having a high amount of IgE and seem to be allergic/intolerant to scores of food items : gluten, dairy & cheese (both immediate & long term) , soy, peanuts, cashews, strawberries (only to fresh ones, not the frozen ones)
For today I've to using Cox2Tame (contains fish oil, willow bark/acetylsalicylic acid, GLA, curcumin & ginger) which has helped wonders in the past to stop uncontrollable itching, but I wonder if I should cut back to 35% carbs at most?
I've been having stronger lifts on more carbs but totally dislike being more susceptible to inflammatory responses or to have so much more DOMS. It's not crippling but just a very new & unusual phenomenon. While everyone 'claims' DOMS is meaningless it is quite interesting to see that somehow there's a teeny amt of muscle growth as of late while this used to be a near absent thing.. so am torn about it..
That makes some sense. I remember … someone, I wanna say Cassandra… talking about getting her tonsils out and how she thought it so bad that the docs all suggest carby foods to eat, when carbs cause an inflammatory response, and therefore she ate stuff like chicken and whey shakes after surgery, and had minimal post-operative swelling and soreness, compared to what she would be told she'd have.
I'll assume you've already done the RICE protocol? So many inflation based aches and pains can be solved just by resting and some ice. Add in some fish oil and you're good to go. IMHO, I would try to see if you can find some solutions that don't require you to pop NSAIDs like candy.
EDIT:
Just to be clear I was mainly referring to your new elbow pain. Arthritis is something that requires more, although I want to say that I've read studies of people with arthritis being helped with high dosages of fish oil.
That makes some sense. I remember … someone, I wanna say Cassandra… talking about getting her tonsils out and how she thought it so bad that the docs all suggest carby foods to eat, when carbs cause an inflammatory response, and therefore she ate stuff like chicken and whey shakes after surgery, and had minimal post-operative swelling and soreness, compared to what she would be told she'd have.
hmm
Do some people just swell less than others? I ask b/c when I tore my ACL I had very little knee swelling (to the point where I didn't know it was torn for months). Post op I also didn't have the 'normal' amount of swelling. Of course that's harder to judge since I was on a prescription anti-inflammatory. My only constant was that I take daily fish oil. /shrug
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aoife
That's a year old post, fyi
Whoops LOL. I need to pay more attention to these posts that pop to the top.
__________________
"Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go." -- T.S. Eliot
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit."-- Aristotle
I would guess that there's certainly an amount of variation among the population. Probably due just as much to biological factors as environmental/lifestyle. There's also potentially, one might find just variation based on the amount of damage done before and during surgery.
I don't tend to swell much from many things, on average. When I got my teeth out, I'd say I had minimal swelling. I wasn't abstaining from carbs, but I also wasn't eating just icecream and jello either. But I can't think of a time when my diet varied much from my current one, and I don't get injured much. I don't know that I've noticed variation in DOMS based on carb intake, but then I've never done suitably low carb, in case there's a low end one must reach to see some difference.
Didn't want to start a new thread so looked for one that had inflammation in it and since the supplement I take also had aspirin , well acetylsalicylic acid plus some fish oil in it.. I decided to bump it.
For many years I've been into endurance cycling and then rarely if ever got muscle soreness. Neither did I get it after I solely got into lifting, but still did some cardio afterwards. The soreness slowly increased once I'd dropped the cardio, but it was just a low background hum. Now, since a few weeks it's sometimes quite nasty... interesting how it coincides with raised carb intake.
Which is known to suppress cortisol (natural corticosteroid of which I seem to produce tons when stressed) , so it makes sense why carbs increase inflammation. Lyle (McDonald) and quite a few others frequently wrote how VLC diets are excellent for people with auto-immune diseases.
Most people I know (IRL or online) that are perfectly content with a VLC lifestyle are suffering from one type of auto-immune disease or another.. used to have joint pain all the time before VLC-ing. Upon raising carbs, it still happens sometimes, but fortunately I know the joint pain is mostly related to gluten intake (yep, inflammatory response).
Just didn't know/remember I could be so bothered by a simple pc of sausage. Krazy! Itched like crazy both at night and the next morning again till I had enough and opened a fresh bottle of Cox2Tame.
One more thing. while low carbing can suppress inflammation, it can also make you more vulnerable to disease as it will also weaken your immune system.
Fantastic for folks with overactive immune system as long as they don't really get infected because it may take longer to recover or make them sick sooner.
In that sense it's a two-edged sword.
Fish oil and baby aspirin reduce inflammation?
Linear Mode
