Diet, Nutrition and SupplementationPost here for supplement reviews or nutritional advice. If you're trying to get "ripped abz" THIS is where you should be.
(Forget about blasting me for asking this when I know there is info here already. I've searched it in the past . . .)
So, Alwyn Cosgrove's blog entry on Oct 17 (you'll have to scroll down) was an answer to a pwo nutrition question. He explained how most/all of the research done is based on overnight fasting, etc. and the bottom line of anything is better than nothing, and don't have coronary over the exact version of the anything.
I'm curious about one element: timing pre, during, and/or post.
What might the latest research, or people's experience, show about best practice? (For both hypertrophy and fat loss?)
My for instance:
Good, hearty breakfast.
Generally working out about 2 hours later.
Mike Roussell talks about the "drink half your drink of protein/sugar before, then sip throughout, then eat afterwards, within an hour."
What of that, compared to the drink it all afterwards?
This might ultimately be, as Alwyn alluded, splitting hairs. But, what lead might I follow. Convince me! I've tried both and can't tell a difference, offhand.
Alan: you can't simply say "buy my book." You can end with that, but you have to provide some answer first.:p
On a more serious note, nutrient timing does not have to be an opus in micromanagement. If you train 1st thing in the morning, make sure you have prot + carb beforehand (and/or during), and I can see the benefit of a liquid or small easily digested meal at this juncture if you have very little time between waking & training. However, if your workout occurs later in the day - or in your case Chris, where you have the time to eat a full-sized breakfast, the peri-workout liquid prot/carb drink is simply not necessary.
Eat a mixed meal pre, train as soon as it's comfortable after finishing the meal (2 hrs for a big meal, 1-1.5 hours for a regular-sized meal, 30-0 minutes for a small meal or shake). Eat a mixed meal post, sooner is better than later, but later won't break your gains or your recovery as long as you didn't skip the pre (or during) fuel. Another little wrinkle here is that if your training bouts approach or exceed 2 hours of continuous work & are focused on improving endurance performance, it will benefit you to sip on a gatorade-type drink providing appx 40-60g carbs per hour, and if you're freaky-deaky, add a half to a whole scoop of whey to it. If you're super-freaky, add 10 ml of water for every additional g protein added to the solution in order to prevent impedance of gastric emptying rate
If your training bouts are of the typical length (60-80 minutes), you don't need to have anything during training except water - granted you covered your preworkout nutrition. But remember, for the goals you've described, what's more important than timing is hitting your macro targets by the end of the day.
I guess we can start there. Let me know what other nit-picky details you want to burden yourself with.
Buy my book. Oh, wait a second I don't have one. I guess I'll tell you what I do.
I have one scoop of whey mixed in milk which provides me with about 35 grams about 20 minutes before I work out. During my workout I drink Gatorade. I drink another identical shake immediately following my workout giving me 70 grams of protein in about a 90-120 minute window.
Hey, thanks, Alan. Perfect amount of answer. And, it make perfect sense. I've often wondered, "If I've had eggs, beans, and a glass of milk at breakfast, then ain't that enough nutrients in my system?"
The question that remains is, "Why all of the discussion of the peri-workout carb/protein drink?" It's usually presented as a necessary (or even magic) component of the nutrition and workout plan. People often talk in terms of that being necessary in the workout window, and then just counting it as a meal, more or less (versus, eating a meal of regular food).
I pretty much always eat within two hours prior, and within two hours following (and usually sooner), a weight workout. Is the concern that many guys are working out with bigger gaps than that?
Buy my book. Oh, wait a second I don't have one. I guess I'll tell you what I do.
I have one scoop of whey mixed in milk which provides me with about 35 grams about 20 minutes before I work out. During my workout I drink Gatorade. I drink another identical shake immediately following my workout giving me 70 grams of protein in about a 90-120 minute window.
Thanks for the input, but, given my situation as presented in my question, and Alan's answer:
"Why?"
BTW, when trying to drop fat, I've had noticeably better success with just milk and whey (no sugar). Preworkout if I have not eaten recently, and post workout otherwise.
A bunch of poor research, and supplement companies backing the research up can get people to follow some weird protocalls. If people put 20% of the effort into their daily diet as their PWO shakes, I think results would be much better.
The question that remains is, "Why all of the discussion of the peri-workout carb/protein drink?" It's usually presented as a necessary (or even magic) component of the nutrition and workout plan. People often talk in terms of that being necessary in the workout window, and then just counting it as a meal, more or less (versus, eating a meal of regular food).
Why? Because people tend to feel special when they drink a magical potion near or during the training bout, regardless of whether the training demands it or benefits from it, such as the case with prolonged endurance training. There simply is no research supporting the superiority of the "workout shake" strategy over solid mixed meals pre & post workout when we're talking about the average-length weight training bout.
Quote:
I pretty much always eat within two hours prior, and within two hours following (and usually sooner), a weight workout. Is the concern that many guys are working out with bigger gaps than that?
(Make note: gotta buy that book soon . . .)
Your protocol sounds just fine to me. I've come across research indicating the detriment of a 4hr preworkout fasting period, but I doubt most people in this neck of the fitness realm are prone to make that mistake.
The question that remains is, "Why all of the discussion of the peri-workout carb/protein drink?" It's usually presented as a necessary (or even magic) component of the nutrition and workout plan.
Yeah, remember when T-nation published the article about their "Double Surge Challenge", where they encouraged people to drink two peri-workout servings of their secret formula? You're a smart dude -- I'm sure you can think of why all this discussion happens.
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Hey, thanks, Alan. Perfect amount of answer. And, it make perfect sense. I've often wondered, "If I've had eggs, beans, and a glass of milk at breakfast, then ain't that enough nutrients in my system?"
Adding a starch in there (swapping out beans for oatmeal, bagel etc.) will likely taste better and improve performance in the gym. Just a suggestion. And no the carbs won't go to fat - they'll fuel your workout.
Adding a starch in there (swapping out beans for oatmeal, bagel etc.) will likely taste better and improve performance in the gym. Just a suggestion. And no the carbs won't go to fat - they'll fuel your workout.
Beans ain't a carb/starch? (They're black beans, BTW)
Right now, it also also includes diced chili tomatoes, as well as two slices of wheat toast. A true power breakfast, no?
I've been finding this discussion very useful and while I think my questions might already have been answered, I'd still like throw it out in the hopes of getting some further clarification. So, here is the deal. I work out quite on reasonably regular basis (weights three times a week) but have to deal with the constraint that I can only do so in the mornings as I don't have a gym in my 'hood. As a result, I have to get up early, catch a train to the gym, work out, change/shower and then head to work (hop back on the train). What this means is that I don't really have the time to eat breakfast in the morning (and my stomach feels too unsettled for me to eat anything really substantial). As a result, we (my wife and I) make a protein shake (a scoop of whey, and a scoop of casein/whey blend) that has some fruit in it as well (strawberries, bananas or whatever else). We mix this all up in some orange or apple juice. I take this along with me to the gym and typically sip on this during my workout as I start to get hungry by the time I get there. When I finish up, I have about half of the shake left, which I down, and then hit the showers. After I get to work, I eat quite quickly, as by now, I'm absolutely famished (the train ride to work takes another 30 minutes or so), so I'm at my office an hour after I've finished working out. This meal tends to be either dinner leftovers (rice/lentils/veggies/beans/pa sta) or some kind of veggie sandwich.
My questions: am I making any ghastly mistakes in this setup? Too much sugar in my shake with all those fruits and fruit juices? Is my morning meal
not 'high-powered' enough? Any recommendations on simple changes I could make to get the most out of my morning routine? Or is this all good?
Samir - I live in Brooklyn too, what neighborhood are you in?
Your setup looks okay. The amount of sugar in your shakes seems fine, but I guess if you're splitting hairs it depends on what your goal is. If you're looking to shed fat, you might want to try using a low carb, protein only shake for your pre/post workout. If you're looking to build muscle, you could stick with what you've got going on now. I suppose that a simple sugar in your shake would work better, instead of the fructose you use right now...but I defer to Alan on that question.
Are you a vegetarian? Seems like your first solid meal at work could use more protein...
Samir - I live in Brooklyn too, what neighborhood are you in?
Your setup looks okay. The amount of sugar in your shakes seems fine, but I guess if you're splitting hairs it depends on what your goal is. If you're looking to shed fat, you might want to try using a low carb, protein only shake for your pre/post workout. If you're looking to build muscle, you could stick with what you've got going on now.
That's the general protocol most talked about. But, if that's essentially your breakfast and workout nutrition, then something more than protein is good, I think. So, the juice/sugars might be OK in any case.
Personally, when I need a preworkout shake that equates to a meal, I really like to use milk as the liquid base. Think of it as a liquid meal/smoothie, rather than a workout drink. Heck, particularly if you're interested in adding muscle, you could have a quick milk/protein shake (casein/whey if you buy that) for breakfast at home, and still take along a whey/juice drink for during your workout and afterwards.
Samir - I live in Brooklyn too, what neighborhood are you in? Your setup looks okay. The amount of sugar in your shakes seems fine, but I guess if you're splitting hairs it depends on what your goal is. If you're looking to shed fat, you might want to try using a low carb, protein only shake for your pre/post workout. If you're looking to build muscle, you could stick with what you've got going on now. I suppose that a simple sugar in your shake would work better, instead of the fructose you use right now...Are you a vegetarian? Seems like your first solid meal at work could use more protein...
SVD, I live in Ditmas Park, and take the Q to Fort Greene for the Crunch. How about yourself? Thanks for the comments. What would be the best way to get a low carb-protein-only shake? (I think I'm slightly lactose intolerant, hence I'm worried about using milk as the base for my shakes! ) I like the taste of the shakes we have now, thats for sure! But yes, I guess I could make them a bit leaner. Also, what would work as a simple sugar? I thought fruit sugars were simple, as compared to syrups etc? And the starting meal - no, I'm not a vegetarian, but it just happens that the meat dishes we cook at night land up getting consumed completely - so its easier to make sandwiches and then take those along. Perhaps I should include some cold cuts (turkey or chicken) in our sandwiches?
On a purely practical note, I found it to be an excellent "tricky" way to increase protein in clients' diets. So many people have the "I can be there at 7:14, out the door by 8:14, and what should I eat between 9:13 and 9:17?" schedules (or at least they feel like they do) that having them keep their whey protein at the gym and dumping it in a water bottle to sip while we train is one of the best ways to improve their intake.
Since they wouldn't otherwise get this 25-30g protein, I think it directly helps. But again, it's mainly because they're simply getting it. I have no evidence that the timing is of great importance.
Back in the summer when I got fairly lean I didn't have a shake with me during training. This fall as I'm headed up the scale (6 pounds in 4 weeks, waistline the same, woo!) I do drink one during. But again, it's just a habitual way to get the cals in, and I like clearing out the dry mouth with grape juice in between sets.
A bunch of poor research, and supplement companies backing the research up can get people to follow some weird protocalls..
its not poor research, its research performed a specific way for specific reasons, that is then misrepresented by a bunch of asshats for a specific reason.
On a more serious note, nutrient timing does not have to be an opus in micromanagement. If you train 1st thing in the morning, make sure you have prot + carb beforehand (and/or during), and I can see the benefit of a liquid or small easily digested meal at this juncture if you have very little time between waking & training. However, if your workout occurs later in the day - or in your case Chris, where you have the time to eat a full-sized breakfast, the peri-workout liquid prot/carb drink is simply not necessary.
Eat a mixed meal pre, train as soon as it's comfortable after finishing the meal (2 hrs for a big meal, 1-1.5 hours for a regular-sized meal, 30-0 minutes for a small meal or shake). Eat a mixed meal post, sooner is better than later, but later won't break your gains or your recovery as long as you didn't skip the pre (or during) fuel. Another little wrinkle here is that if your training bouts approach or exceed 2 hours of continuous work & are focused on improving endurance performance, it will benefit you to sip on a gatorade-type drink providing appx 40-60g carbs per hour, and if you're freaky-deaky, add a half to a whole scoop of whey to it. If you're super-freaky, add 10 ml of water for every additional g protein added to the solution in order to prevent impedance of gastric emptying rate
If your training bouts are of the typical length (60-80 minutes), you don't need to have anything during training except water - granted you covered your preworkout nutrition. But remember, for the goals you've described, what's more important than timing is hitting your macro targets by the end of the day.
I guess we can start there. Let me know what other nit-picky details you want to burden yourself with.
Alan - You mind giving an example of what your mixed meal looks like?
Normally, I'd agree. Its just that I'm working out in the morning, and by the time I get to the gym, I really do get quite hungry without my stomach quite having settled. The protein shake plus fruit is quite sustaining under those circumstances.
its not poor research, its research performed a specific way for specific reasons, that is then misrepresented by a bunch of asshats for a specific reason.
$$
Miko's right, I think, in that the workout drink studies all occur with preworkout fasting and other such protocols used in order to determine/isolate any effect. Lab/study circumstances, but not real life/world circumstances.
I've really taken Alan's advice to heart and it works just fine. Also, if watching calories, I don't have to worry about factoring in those workout drink calories. I'd rather eat some food.
Alan - You mind giving an example of what your mixed meal looks like?
Any protein source with a carb source. Or, any food that's a combination of protein & carbs. The guideline is really that broad. Setting specifics can be counterproductive, because there's no "best" meal. With that disclaimer out of the way, what I would have if time & a lack of laziness permitted is probably some steak (or insert other land or sea flesh here) and potatoes (or insert other starch source here). But what I typically end up doing is making a huge 40oz shake from whey (ON cookies & cream or ON rocky road), oats, milk, & frozen strawberries. I have about a 1/3-1/2 of it pre & the rest post.
Another pre/post wo nutrition/drink thread
I've tried both and can't tell a difference, offhand.
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