Diet, Nutrition and SupplementationPost here for supplement reviews or nutritional advice. If you're trying to get "ripped abz" THIS is where you should be.
When adding muscle or bulking it is evident that you must add calories, but what kind of calories, and how much?
Throughout the last nine months I cut calories to less than 2000, and carbohydrates to less than 50g per day. I cut calories and carbohydrates so quick that I didn’t have anything else to cut when progress slowed. Because I didn’t take things slow, it seems that a lot of the 36.5lbs lost, was muscle, leaving me with more body fat that I anticipated. I got down to 187 lbs and felt like I was withering away so I have decided to put on some muscle.
I’ve figured maintenance calories to be approximately 2450 on training days and 2200 on non training days. Most of the information I have read indicates that adding muscle would require 500 additional calories over maintenance, which would put me at 2950 on training days, and 2700 on non training days. Does this look correct, it seems like a lot of food on non training days?
The second part of the equation is the type of food eaten; I am going for a clean bulk with minimal fat gain since I am starting at about 16%BF. I will up my protein to nearly 400g per day, what should I do about carbohydrates and fat? I have read that fat helps promote the production of testosterone, and carbohydrates are needed for energy and fast recovery, but when are these foods okay?
So the three main questions are:
How many calories on training vs’ non training days?
When is it okay to eat carbohydrates?
How should the diets split - 50%P 25%C 25%F?
When adding muscle or bulking it is evident that you must add calories, but what kind of calories, and how much?
Throughout the last nine months I cut calories to less than 2000, and carbohydrates to less than 50g per day. I cut calories and carbohydrates so quick that I didn’t have anything else to cut when progress slowed. Because I didn’t take things slow, it seems that a lot of the 36.5lbs lost, was muscle, leaving me with more body fat that I anticipated. I got down to 187 lbs and felt like I was withering away so I have decided to put on some muscle.
I’ve figured maintenance calories to be approximately 2450 on training days and 2200 on non training days. Most of the information I have read indicates that adding muscle would require 500 additional calories over maintenance, which would put me at 2950 on training days, and 2700 on non training days. Does this look correct, it seems like a lot of food on non training days?
The second part of the equation is the type of food eaten; I am going for a clean bulk with minimal fat gain since I am starting at about 16%BF. I will up my protein to nearly 400g per day, what should I do about carbohydrates and fat? I have read that fat helps promote the production of testosterone, and carbohydrates are needed for energy and fast recovery, but when are these foods okay?
So the three main questions are:
How many calories on training vs’ non training days?
When is it okay to eat carbohydrates?
How should the diets split - 50%P 25%C 25%F?
you don't need 400g of protein. you need to be able to crap at least once a week.
Stop overthinking things. If you want to get bigger, eat more food. If you start to gain weight (weekly), then you're on the right track. If not, add a few more calories.
If you're cutting, either eat less, or eat the same as you're doing, and move around more.
Everyone makes things so complicated, and you don't need to. Why are you tracking calories? You should try and learn to go by instinct. I don't think calorie tracking is needed by ANYONE, unless they're getting into competition state.
Basically:
get 1g of protein/lb
get good fats (fish oils)
fill the rest of your calorie needs in with carbs/fats.
__________________ True Protein 5% off discount code: ZHS099 www.trueprotein.com
Most of your non-fruit/veggie carbs should be consumed in the workout window. The definition of this window depends both on who you ask and, practically, on you. So I'd say 1 hr before to 2 hrs after your workout. But really 15 minutes before to half an hour after is when the carbs will be the MOST useful.
5-6 Balanced meals per day (P/F/C around equal). Don't worry about supplementation. If you find you are not gaining any weight, add a bit more food to each meal. If you are gaining to much weight, take a little food away from each meal. Its not all that complex, really until you get to stages where your body just wont put on more muscle and you wont gain weight. I wouldn't worry about nutrient timing, or specific breakdown.
I had the hardest sticking point ever at 230lbs, couldn't pass it no matter what. I stayed there for a few months, dieted down to 220lbs, then went at it full tilt again and got to 245ish now. Until you hit a point where your body goes 'screw this' keep things as simple as you can.
Thanks for the feedback, I wish I could agree with the comment about not tracking calories, but unfortunately I tried this in the past and ended up at a very fat 233.5 Lbs. I don’t have any problem adding weight; I have a problem keeping the fat down while putting on muscle. With that said I will continue to track everything I eat very closely, this allows me to make changes in my diet based on previous food consumption.
When reading many articles over at T Nation, including JB’s, it states that 1.5 – 2g of protein per pound of body weight is best, this is the reason I am aiming for the 400g per day. Eating this much protein per day is damn hard, so I figured aiming for it will at least get me to 300+ grams.
So if I understand correctly, simple carbohydrates should only be consumed within the 2-hour workout window, one hour before to one hour after training. All eating outside of the workout window should follow a lower carbohydrate diet as I did when cutting. This was a big concern for me because I was thinking in terms of recovery; do you not benefit much from Carbohydrates outside of this window?
Lastly my calories, when bulking should I follow maintenance calories or should I up the maintenance calories 200-500 to assist with recovery and the loss of muscle tissue?
-go with 1.5-1.7g for KG of bodyweight for protein. Divide BW in lb by 2.2 then x by 1.7.
-5-7g per KG of bodyweight for carbs. Divide BW in lb by 2.2 then x by 7g.
-fat= calories left over / 9 to give you grams.
Lets just add 250calories to your 2450cal to start with & bodyweight 187lb.
187/2.2= 85kg
That gives:
-protein= 144.5g or 578calories protein
-carb= 425g carb or 1700calories from carbs
-fat= 35g or remaining 322calories
Alternatively look for anything Alan Aragon has written.
Current stuff at Precision Nutrition recommends less P than JB's previous stuff. If I run your numbers in his calculator, I get 250 or so grams of P at a much higher calorie level (3500!).
It's cool to start off slow and ramp the calories up every week or so, just so you don't gain a bunch more fat than you want.
I think the key is the get enough P, F, and C and enough calories to grow, without stressing too much about the macros. There's a huge amount of leeway in those macros. A little +/- on any of them, probably won't make a difference in the real world.
What's enough P? 1g per lb of target body wieght is about the minimum average per day. More is fluff. Might help, but not enough to worry. The rest might as well be 50/50 C/F or 40/60 or 60/40 or whatever, as long as you don't go all extreme.
Get all this and then the calories are what count.
Thanks for the feedback, I wish I could agree with the comment about not tracking calories, but unfortunately I tried this in the past and ended up at a very fat 233.5 Lbs. I don’t have any problem adding weight; I have a problem keeping the fat down while putting on muscle. With that said I will continue to track everything I eat very closely, this allows me to make changes in my diet based on previous food consumption.
When reading many articles over at T Nation, including JB’s, it states that 1.5 – 2g of protein per pound of body weight is best, this is the reason I am aiming for the 400g per day. Eating this much protein per day is damn hard, so I figured aiming for it will at least get me to 300+ grams.
So if I understand correctly, simple carbohydrates should only be consumed within the 2-hour workout window, one hour before to one hour after training. All eating outside of the workout window should follow a lower carbohydrate diet as I did when cutting. This was a big concern for me because I was thinking in terms of recovery; do you not benefit much from Carbohydrates outside of this window?
Lastly my calories, when bulking should I follow maintenance calories or should I up the maintenance calories 200-500 to assist with recovery and the loss of muscle tissue?
You have 157lbs of LBM now (assume bf is right), if your BF is correct. Unless you where at 35% bf at 235 which I very much doubt (morbid obsese) you lost some serious muscle mass.
Now, if you where really at 35%bf, ignore the following..
What your doing, didn't work. You are scared of carbohydrates, even though the lack of them is what likely caused you to loose muscle. You need a change of approach. Now, instead of getting more detailed in insugnificant details of diet like counting macros and nutrient timing, you need to get a solid plan that you can follow for as long as needed (likely years). If you where to follow a diet for years, which is what it takes to build a good amount of muscle, would you make it so restrictive? Would you want to count cals everyday? Worry about having 2% extra dextrose in your workout drink? I doubt it.
Now, im not saying to go eat everything in sight. Few people can do that without getting fat. But a solid diet consisting of good, whole food meals not excluding any macro, is ideal in most cases. Dont worry about calories, if your gaining fat, look at your portion sizes more then anything.. Reduce them or do more activity at this point.
There is no need to get real fat. The goal is increased muscle mass. Go pretty slow and dont think to much about it. I couldnt ever tell you my breakdown of c/p/f while trying to add muscle. Ive learned to listen to my body more then every before and eating the right amount is pretty easy now.
i never met anyone that needed to track their calories, and if they didn't they gained 50lbs or whatever you're saying you gained.
So why are you eating 400 grams of protein?! because JB told you to in an article? Here comes a big shock, that what JB says isn't the be all, and end all of diet advice. You don't need greens+ and surge, or post workout drinks to get huge and ripped. It seems kind of foolish to take diet advice from 1 article, which hasn't worked for you before or you wouldn't be asking dieting questions, where everyone else on this forum are telling you to do something different.
whatever floats your boat though. The stuff we all told you is stuff i guess you didn't want to hear. So, keep doing what you're doing, and report back in another few months.
__________________ True Protein 5% off discount code: ZHS099 www.trueprotein.com
Everyone makes things so complicated, and you don't need to. Why are you tracking calories? You should try and learn to go by instinct. I don't think calorie tracking is needed by ANYONE, unless they're getting into competition state.
Basically:
get 1g of protein/lb
get good fats (fish oils)
fill the rest of your calorie needs in with carbs/fats.
try 1g per kg not pound, if he had tracked calories and macros on the way down chances are you wouldnt have lost so much muscle.
Also calorie differential of 500 on training days from where you are is crazy. You say you still have fat, you cut the calories to lose the fat and now you are facing a whopping increase. Keep it simple start off at 2200 up it every 2 weeks per fortnight and dont switch it round on training days.
__________________
BFG
"The time for talking has passed, actions are speaking louder than words."
It looks like everyone agrees; taking things slow and ramping up calories is the way to proceed. I knew my diet had gotten out of balance but I wasn’t really sure how to repair things. I have always avoided carbohydrates like the plague when cutting fat, maybe this has been the problem all along. Until now I have always focused on fat-loss, I need to reprogram my ways of thinking & eating and I really appreciate all the assistance everyone is providing.
So how does this look:
Weight = 193.0lbs
Body weight x 1g protein = 193g = 772 calories
Body weight x 4g carbohydrates = 350g = 1403 calories
Total calories from protein and carbohydrates = 2175 calories
Remainder of the calories to come from fat = 34g = 275 calories
Total calorie intake 2450 per day to start.
Now the above is very heavy in carbs compared to what I’ve been eating, but it follows the information everyone is providing. So my next questions is what kind of carbs should I take in, oatmeal, whole wheat bread and pasta, etc? How am I going to get down 1403 calories of carbs per day, sounds stupid but I’ve never ate like this before?
There are some fats that I enjoy eating, especially avocados and almonds. You’re probably right about feeling comfortable, it’s not that 350g of carbs is to many, it’s about not eating the fats that I love.
So something like this may be better:
Body weight x 1g protein = 193g = 772 calories
Body weight x 4g carbohydrates = 263g = 1052 calories
Total calories from protein and carbohydrates = 1824 calories
Remainder of the calories to come from fat = 69g = 626 calories (/9)
Total calorie intake 2450 per day to start.
I think the above would be more reasonable to follow and less restrictive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alcoholiday
i like higher fats in my diet. I consume whole eggs in olive oil, and when i make oatmeal, i throw in some walnuts and flax.
first off, fats are 9 calories. So, 34 grams=306 not 275.
if you don't feel comfortable eating that many carbs, lower the carbs and up the fats.
I get the majority of my carbs from milk, steel cut oats, and ezekiel bread.
Track calories! I was skinny, 33 and started eating like a horse. I put on considerable weight but got to point where I was getting too fat. Mind you, I was counting the whole time but was consuming too much. Because I knew where I was, calorie wise, I was able to back off a little, adjust my caloric intake and get back on track.
At first counting macros is somewhat tedious and time consuming and might even seem a little overboard. But trust me, it gets easier and easier and after a while you'll know what foods have what and how much and won't have to break out the pen, paper and calculator (if you suck at math like me). At the most, though, I would carry a small calculator so you can quickly add things up on the fly. Most cell phones have calcs and I have one that sits by my blender. And if your in front of your computer, Start, Run type Calc for Windows' calculator.
There are some fats that I enjoy eating, especially avocados and almonds. You’re probably right about feeling comfortable, it’s not that 350g of carbs is to many, it’s about not eating the fats that I love.
So something like this may be better:
Body weight x 1g protein = 193g = 772 calories
Body weight x 4g carbohydrates = 263g = 1052 calories
Total calories from protein and carbohydrates = 1824 calories
Remainder of the calories to come from fat = 69g = 626 calories (/9)
Total calorie intake 2450 per day to start.
I think the above would be more reasonable to follow and less restrictive.
Fat is 9 calories per gram. Have you tried useing the katch mcardle formula or Harris-Bennedict formulas to figure out BMR and total daily expenditures? I used these formulas to give me an idea of where I needed to be. Over a few weeks you can adjust accordingly. Your above ratios look a lot better, by the way.
__________________
Rob Harris
Last edited by rbharris : 10-13-2007 at 08:55 AM.
Reason: edit spelling
Still brings me back to the same point: If you still have fat to lose why not just switch your macros over to that for the next two weeks anyway see how you fair and then up it by 200 every fortnight whilst maintaning the same macro split? As soon as you increase you will start to add mass its not like theres a magical switch by increasing it to 500 extra
You are slightly sacrificing the nutitional benefits of protein and carbs in favour of fats but for the sake of sanity. But its sanity that will keep you going long term so whilst its not ideal from a building and nutrition point of view it is favourable to longevity.
As for calorie density on the carb front I would make potatoes and pasta your friend, have the porridge/oats for breakfast and avoid things then like cous cous, quinoa and rice as the volume you would be facing would be like eating Kilimanjaro. Dont forget your fruit an milk, milk helps you get 100 calories down in a single glass 5 of them a day is no biggie on the consumption front but is on the carb and protein front
__________________
BFG
"The time for talking has passed, actions are speaking louder than words."
This is sound advice. Don't be afraid to investigate claims regardless of who makes them. There is way too much of this that occurs in the industry. Anyone that makes a statment should be able to debate or back up with valid evidence (that does not include because i said so, or i have a degree, or good physique etc..)
"So why are you eating 400 grams of protein?! because JB told you to in an article? Here comes a big shock, that what JB says isn't the be all, and end all of diet advice. You don't need greens+ and surge, or post workout drinks to get huge and ripped."
as i said be skeptical of all claims particularly claims made in this industry
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