Joints and Diet.

[Frank.S]

What kind of things can I do to maximize my joint health diet/supplement wise?

I have been eating lots of omega-3's in my diet lately, as well as taking some glucosomine. These did seem to help some, but a bit of a problem still exists. I eat lots of other dietary fats as well.

Anything else I should try? Painkillers work.. but thats not really what im looking for of course. I am taking a deload from lifting, but this is a problem thats been there for a while, just never really addressed it.

[I. Kay]

Looks like you have the "biggies" covered. The ones I know about anyway.

Perhaps look into the herbal stuff. Curcumin (in turmeric) and bromelain have pretty good reputations as anti-inflammatories.

[Bill2380]

Frank, I think I've read that you don't take any Omega 3 supplements, rather you try to get it in your diet. I find that my feet and knees feel better at 51 than they did 10 years ago. I had real pain the morning after basketball until I stated taking a high potency fish oil supplement. Now I jump out of bed like a gazelle the next day and sprint to the bathroom. Try it for 60 days...I think you'll be surprised.

[Frank.S]

Your right, no supplements. Eat a fair amount of fish. I think i'm going to give it a try. I got nothing to loose and sometimes the pain is pretty bad.

[Lost Dog]

You're very strong and bulked up very fast a while back. Muscle growth outpaced your ligament growth, most likely. Gotta slow down...

The fish oil won't help specifically with joint issues, but overall inflammation is helped.

You might look into some rehab or preventative exercises that powerlifters use to take care of the ligaments. Or, so I've heard.

For fish oil, remember that 1oz of salmon (which is fatty) has about as much Omega-3 as a typical dose of fish oil (1-2 caps, depending on the brand). When they cap says 1,000mg, that 1,000 mg of fat, not the fat we want. For the Omega-3s, you have to add up the DHA/EPA numbers on the back label.

I shoot for 3,000-4,000mg of Omega-3s a day from fish or fish oil. That's about 10oz of salmon a day. That's a lot of salmon. Every day.

Tuna is very low in fat. You'd need about 48oz of chunk light, which is the fattiest. Other fish fall in between, mostly.

[Alcoholiday]

there are foods that supposedly irritate the joints. Gluten, sugar, and high allergic foods (milk, nuts, etc), can all irritate the joints. That coupled with heavy lifting isn't the best. But i think the foods only affect certain people more than others.

Eric Talmert over at elite says that sugars and grain are the main irritant of joint problems. So, taking these out of your diet, is supposed to help.

Here's a long q&a, but it's probably something you're looking for:

Eric Talmant:

In regards to krill oil and coconut oil, how do these oils help promote health joints?

Also, I am trying to do my best to eat as much "real" food as possible and no artificially made crap. I was wondering how you felt about things such as oils that are extracted. For example, drinking fish oil instead of eating more fish. My guess is, it's just not as easy to eat as much fish as you can drink fish oil. But I was wondering how you felt about extracted oils in terms of health. Basically, I'm tring to rework my diet where the things that I ingest are the least amount tampered with possible.

Thanks.

Brian:

In terms of diet, probably the most important way to reduce inflammation is to eliminate sugar and all grains. Just this simple strategy may provide amazing relief.

Refined carbohydrates can aggravate and even cause degeneration. Excess acids in the system do exactly what they sound like they do: they deteriorate and damage cells. Additionally, the body's survival mechanism will attempt to neutralize these acids.
Therefore, as you consume sugar, flours, grains and other refined carbohydrates, your blood stream can end up in acid overload and the result is the beginning of degenerative arthritis.

For some, dairy and caffeine are two additional major acid culprits. I believe that Metabolic Typing and knowing one’s type is a great solution to avoiding and even reversing some of the damaging effects of arthritis as a result of diet. Please refer to the two articles that I have written about Metabolic Typing here on the site.

Furthermore, as I stated beforehand, fats play a major role in the inflammatory process. Excess omega-6 and omega-9 fats will add fuel to the fire of arthritis while taking high quality fish oil (krill oil) and coconut oil helps to put out this fire. Krill oil is an omega 3 fat (DHA/EPA). It is important to get adequate amounts of omega-3 fatty acids, because DHA and EPA are vey helpful for normalizing the immune dysfunction that seems to be a major contributing factor in both rheumatoid arthritis and MS.


Because hydration is also a major factor, drinking enough water daily will help put out the fire of arthritis. Walking around on dry joints is just as bad as it sounds.

If eliminating sugar and grains does not provide you with adequate relief, then the following herbal solutions may be able to provide the benefits of painkilling drugs without raising your risk of serious health problems like heart attacks and stroke:

Ginger: This herb is anti-inflammatory and offers pain relief and stomach-settling properties. Fresh ginger works well steeped in boiling water as a tea or grated into vegetable juice. Powder capsules are also available, but the fresh root is better.

Boswellia: Also known as boswellin or "Indian frankincense," this herb contains specific active anti-inflammatory ingredients, referred to as boswellic acids that animal studies have shown significantly reduce inflammation. In another study of 175 patients with rheumatic disorders such as rheumatoid arthritis, 122 participants had reduced stiffness and inflammation just two to four weeks after starting on Boswellia.

Fish Oils (Mentioned Above): The omega-3 fats EPA and DHA found in fish oil have been found, by many animal and clinical studies, to have anti-inflammatory properties that reduce joint inflammation and promote joint lubrication.

Omega-3 fats are very important for any comprehensive anti-inflammatory program. They form the precursors to the molecules that actually produce or inhibit inflammation in your body (prostaglandins). That is why it is essential to make sure you are getting enough. It is also important to understand that you need to reduce omega-6 fats like vegetable oils seeds and nuts, as it is actually the ratio of omega 6:3 fats that determines how much inflammation is present. You could theoretically consume enough omega-3 fish oils to work but then ruin the effect by consuming too many omega-6 fats.

Bromelain: This enzyme, found in pineapples, is a natural anti-inflammatory. It can be taken in supplement form, but eating fresh pineapple would probably be better.

Cetyl Myristoleate (CMO): This oil, found in fish and dairy butter, acts as a "joint lubricant" and an anti-inflammatory. Raw butter contains "Wulzen anti-stiffness factor." This factor has been found to be highly effective in reversing arthritis and protects against calcification of joints.
In one study of 106 people with various types of arthritis who did not respond to NSAIDs, 63.5 percent of those who took CMO orally and applied the cream topically (it's available both in oral supplement and cream forms) improved, compared to only 14.5 percent of those taking a placebo. Raw butter would be the best, with organic butter or ghee next.

Evening Primrose, Black Currant and Borage Oils: These contain the essential fatty acid gamma linolenic acid (GLA), which is useful for treating arthritic pain. These are the exception to omega-6 fats that are necessary to have in your diet. In one study of 37 rheumatoid arthritis patients, those who received 1.4 grams of GLA per day reduced the number of tender joints by 36 percent, the tenderness of the joints by 45 percent, the number of swollen joints by 28 percent, and the degree of joint swelling by 41 percent. The placebo group showed no significant improvements.

Borage oil contains a higher concentration of GLA, which means you need fewer capsules and that it us usually more cost effective.

Cayenne Cream: Also called capsaicin cream, this spice comes from dried hot peppers. It alleviates pain by depleting the body's supply of substance P, a chemical component of nerve cells that transmits pain signals to the brain.

Yes, you are correct in saying that when given the choice, the actual food is always better than taking a supplement. However, many times this may not be practical and therefore supplementation is a good thing.

In regards to fish, many of the ones that contain the beneficial amounts of DHA/EPA are also the same ones that contain unsafe levels of mercury. Although beyond the scope of this answer, mercury is very, very harmful and should be avoided at all times. That is why I recommend krill oil above everything else for DHA/EPA

i have also heard that epsom salt baths help with soreness, although, i think that's muscle and not joints.

You can also do high rep banded stuff, barebell or db, to flush blood to that area. Plus, if they're inflamed, rest will help lots.

[Frank.S]

Originally Posted by Lost Dog

You're very strong and bulked up very fast a while back. Muscle growth outpaced your ligament growth, most likely. Gotta slow down...

The fish oil won't help specifically with joint issues, but overall inflammation is helped.

You might look into some rehab or preventative exercises that powerlifters use to take care of the ligaments. Or, so I've heard.

For fish oil, remember that 1oz of salmon (which is fatty) has about as much Omega-3 as a typical dose of fish oil (1-2 caps, depending on the brand). When they cap says 1,000mg, that 1,000 mg of fat, not the fat we want. For the Omega-3s, you have to add up the DHA/EPA numbers on the back label.

I shoot for 3,000-4,000mg of Omega-3s a day from fish or fish oil. That's about 10oz of salmon a day. That's a lot of salmon. Every day.

Tuna is very low in fat. You'd need about 48oz of chunk light, which is the fattiest. Other fish fall in between, mostly.

Dont want to slow down strength gains!

Ive never seen the break down of fish oils like how you put it there. I am going to try some fish oils here, I got nothing to loose. I usually wat one meal per day as fish, but yes, sometimes its non-fatty tuna.

Its weird that this came 'all at once' I think. nothing..nothing..nothing... extreme pain..

[Frank.S]

Originally Posted by Alcoholiday

there are foods that supposedly irritate the joints. Gluten, sugar, and high allergic foods (milk, nuts, etc), can all irritate the joints. That coupled with heavy lifting isn't the best. But i think the foods only affect certain people more than others.

Eric Talmert over at elite says that sugars and grain are the main irritant of joint problems. So, taking these out of your diet, is supposed to help.

Here's a long q&a, but it's probably something you're looking for:





i have also heard that epsom salt baths help with soreness, although, i think that's muscle and not joints.

You can also do high rep banded stuff, barebell or db, to flush blood to that area. Plus, if they're inflamed, rest will help lots.

Thanks for all that!

about the high rep stuff, I have to avoid getting pumps in my arm (especially shoulder/tris) waaaaay to painful when the blood gets in there. It feels like my arms are going to 'pop' and almost puts me in tears.. Taurine seems to help. I once took a NO product and cried like a girl haha.

[Espi]

Staying away from gluten definitely was the key factor for me, to reduce joint pain. Moreso than taking supplements. High doses of omega3s are indeed beneficial, but keeping grains in the diet, is like rekindling a fire while at the same time trying to trying to extinguish it.

[bryanc]

They say that if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all.

So, I think that's where I'm going to stand on this issue, despite wanting to make a longer post at this point (that, and I'm off to work). Suffice it to say that 1) there is no evidence to show that glucosamine is a "preventative" for joint injury (just because you're eating a component of cartilage, doesn't mean it's getting there), and 2) if sugar was truly a joint irritant, we should have a pandemic of diabetic arthritis. But we don't. Think about it.

[Alcoholiday]

Originally Posted by bryanc

They say that if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all.

So, I think that's where I'm going to stand on this issue, despite wanting to make a longer post at this point (that, and I'm off to work). Suffice it to say that 1) there is no evidence to show that glucosamine is a "preventative" for joint injury (just because you're eating a component of cartilage, doesn't mean it's getting there), and 2) if sugar was truly a joint irritant, we should have a pandemic of diabetic arthritis. But we don't. Think about it.

true. I was just posting a lot of what eric posted over on elite. I personally don't see sugar being a big thing for joint pain. I buy the lack of water issue, and gluten a lot more.

[Espi]

Sugar definitely is NOT causing joint problems for me. Gluten is.
I have often thought the glucosamine helps, but apparently it's not really working. At the time I took it, I was also staying away from gluten, that helped more. Since then I've been able to pinpoint what are triggers for joint pain and what not. Also what works against it and what not. Omega3s are far superior.
Chondroitine does help somewhat and we have enough evidence about hyaluronic acid.

We used everything between BoneUp, krill oil, and hyaluronic acid to cure a dog with hip problems. She'd already been given up by the vet, but she did recover.