Diet, Nutrition and SupplementationPost here for supplement reviews or nutritional advice. If you're trying to get "ripped abz" THIS is where you should be.
Before going to the summit, my PWO shakes consisted of whey and a banana. However at the summit a lot of people where talking about the use of gatorade powder so on the way home to England I picked up a tub and have been using it for my pre/during/post WO protein shakes.
I cannot really get hold of Gatorade easily here, the closest I have found is Lucozade powder. The breakdown is listed below. My question is do you think this is a good substitute? It seems to be fairly similar but to me it appears a little low in carbs.
I could get Gatorade from ebay but it would run me $15-20 more a month , which is the better option?
Dextrose, Maltodextrin, Citric Acid, Acidity Regulator (Sodium Citrate), Flavouring, Sweeteners (Aspartame, Acesulfame K), Antioxidant (Ascorbic Acid), Vitamins (Niacin, Pantothenic Acid, B6, B2, B12), Colour (Beta Carotene).
Contains a source of Phenylalanine. May Contain Traces of Peanut Oil. Typical values per 100Ml
Energy 121 kJ (28 kcal) Protein Trace Carbohydrate 6.6g Fat Nil
Once serving is 3 scoops per 500Ml fluid, i've been doing one scoop in with my ON shakes (one before, one during and one after my workouts)
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"Focus on making the 5 lifts stronger and getting enough food. There will be plenty of time to worry about glycemic indexes, PERs, and Bulgarian Split squats later. Much later."-Mark Rippetoe
You're gonna trade out a banana for a bunch of artificial crap?
I used to be a dextrose guy, but that was before I read up and realized that unless you train in an overnight-fasted, glycogen-depleted state, minus a pre-workout meal, for endurance-type durations (2 hours or more continuously), guess what? The postworkout dex or gato powder approach is simply a good way to pay more money for less micronutrition than whole food-based carbs.
I take you recommend sticking with the Banana then
Would you suggest half pre/half post workout - or just teh whole thing post?
__________________
*****************************
Walk on
With hope in your heart
And You'll Never Walk Alone
*****************************
There's no free lunch, especially when it's served with special sauce (lostdog)
***************************** My Log - PC Plod
I take you recommend sticking with the Banana then
Would you suggest half pre/half post workout - or just teh whole thing post?
For most weight training/non-endurance workouts, the immediate preW amount of carbs I've seen work very well in private practice is 0.25g/lb target bodyweight. This can be sipped during training if your schedule forces you to wake up and immediately train.
0.5g/lb target bodyweight immediately postworkout is the "golden mean" that maximizes recovery and takes advantage of your muscles receptivity to carbs in the postW period.
If you run a banana through those numbers, you'll notice that the 25g carbs in the typical banana will possibly only cover a fraction of the total amount of carbs you should be taking in surrounding the training bout. The rest of your carb allotment can be fulfilled easily with oats, or potatoes, or corn, or you name it. Gato powder is truly not a bang-for-the-buck substrate when you compare it to whole foods that contain literally hundreds (even thousands) of different and beneficial micronutrients per species. I personally use fruit + ground old fashioned oats both pre & post as my main carb source. I also have milk surrounding the bout as well, but that's an individual tolerance thing.
Thanks Alan - I love oats so that may well be a the way to go for me
Cheers
__________________
*****************************
Walk on
With hope in your heart
And You'll Never Walk Alone
*****************************
There's no free lunch, especially when it's served with special sauce (lostdog)
***************************** My Log - PC Plod
Thanks Alan - I love oats so that may well be a the way to go for me
Cheers
No problem man... Another thing, keep protein @ appx 0.25g/lb target BW on both sides of the workout. Also remember that your pre/post meals don't have to be liquid, they can be solid foods & work just as well.
For most weight training/non-endurance workouts, the immediate preW amount of carbs I've seen work very well in private practice is 0.25g/lb target bodyweight. This can be sipped during training if your schedule forces you to wake up and immediately train.
0.5g/lb target bodyweight immediately postworkout is the "golden mean" that maximizes recovery and takes advantage of your muscles receptivity to carbs in the postW period.
If you run a banana through those numbers, you'll notice that the 25g carbs in the typical banana will possibly only cover a fraction of the total amount of carbs you should be taking in surrounding the training bout. The rest of your carb allotment can be fulfilled easily with oats, or potatoes, or corn, or you name it. Gato powder is truly not a bang-for-the-buck substrate when you compare it to whole foods that contain literally hundreds (even thousands) of different and beneficial micronutrients per species. I personally use fruit + ground old fashioned oats both pre & post as my main carb source. I also have milk surrounding the bout as well, but that's an individual tolerance thing.
Bullcrap. Gatorade is the Thirst Quencher. It has electrolytes! Ever heard of those, Mr. Smarty-Pants? Just ask Michael Jordan, the greatest scorer in the history of the NBA! If it wasn't for his post-workout Gatorade, we'd still be thinking "Jackson" when anybody spoke of "Michael"!
Bullcrap. Gatorade is the Thirst Quencher. It has electrolytes! Ever heard of those, Mr. Smarty-Pants? Just ask Michael Jordan, the greatest scorer in the history of the NBA! If it wasn't for his post-workout Gatorade, we'd still be thinking "Jackson" when anybody spoke of "Michael"!
lol, that totally takes me back to the early 80's. "Gatorade is thirst aid, for that deep-down-body thirst!"
__________________
I do not workout. I TRAIN.
I do not eat. I FEED.
I do not sleep. I RECHARGE.
My greatest fear in this life is the fear of being ordinary.
Oh yeah, for the record I definitely agree with Alan here. Every study out there about post-workout carbs using some sugary processed concoction is after an overnight fast and an endurance workout. The more I think about it the more I realize it's all a bunch of crap pushed by supplement companies. Would my results and where I am right now be any different if I drank chocolate milk with bananas and oats after training instead of the lastest greatest post-workout formula? Somehow I doubt it. Here's a good post about this from Jason Ferruggia in his blog.
__________________
I do not workout. I TRAIN.
I do not eat. I FEED.
I do not sleep. I RECHARGE.
My greatest fear in this life is the fear of being ordinary.
The more I think about it the more I realize it's all a bunch of crap pushed by supplement companies. Would my results and where I am right now be any different if I drank chocolate milk with bananas and oats after training instead of the lastest greatest post-workout formula? Somehow I doubt it. Here's a good post about this from Jason Ferruggia in his blog.
Agree. I tried gatorade/whey for about a month, but i stopped because it tasted bad. I've been having whole foods(3-4 bowls of ceraeal/milk with honey with a scoop of whey) for about the last 2 months,and I have to say that I am actually recovering better. But that is probably because i am taking in 800 cals PWO as opposed to 300...
The point is that the total amount of cals is more important then whether it is solid or liquid.
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"Focus on making the 5 lifts stronger and getting enough food. There will be plenty of time to worry about glycemic indexes, PERs, and Bulgarian Split squats later. Much later."-Mark Rippetoe
I agree with the whole food after workout (or anytime for that matter..)
I find wheys and carb mix's are fine sometimes, just becasue they are fast to make/eat. Sure chicken breast and pasta is better, but somtimes im lazy to cook and that whey+oats starts looking pretty good haha.
If you were going to go the gatorade route, i think buying dextrose in bulk, and adding it to some protein and water would be tons cheaper, and in a lot of cases, better tasting.
But i agree w/ alan and everyone else.
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This, along with Amino Acids discussion, has been very interesting. Ever since reading Scrawny to Brawny, I thought it was critical to get protein/carbs in liquid form around your workout. However, I workout at home after work, and usually eat dinner right after. If I can eat dinner immediately post workout, do I need to have a shake before or during my workout?
BU
This, along with Amino Acids discussion, has been very interesting. Ever since reading Scrawny to Brawny, I thought it was critical to get protein/carbs in liquid form around your workout. However, I workout at home after work, and usually eat dinner right after. If I can eat dinner immediately post workout, do I need to have a shake before or during my workout?
BU
In the beginning, you must make sure you're absorbing protein & carbs during training by virtue of either having consumed a) a full-sized solid prot/carb meal within appx 60-90 minutes of starting your training, or b) a small easily digested prot/carb meal or shake finished any point within appx 30 minutes of starting your training, or during training if you made a shake.
Understand that preW nutrition is just as important as postW nutrition from the standpoint of coinciding peak blood flow with peak plasma nutient levels. Put simply, it equates to better delivery of aminos & glucose into muscle, which in turn causes greater protein synthesis and inhibition of protein breakdown. I know that this gets kinda technical, but that's why preW is important, not just post.
If you covered either scenario a or b (doing both may be optimal for workouts approaching 90 minutes to 2hrs), then you purely & simply removed the urgency of the speed of postW nutrient absorption. Why? Because if you constructed your preW meal right (0.25g/lb for both protein & carbs), you'll still be on the tail end of the meal's absorption even at the end of your workout.
Alan,
Thank you very much for your in depth response. I usually have 1/2 cup cottage cheese and an apple about 45 minutes prior to my workout. Then, I have a protein/carb shake during my workout. I usually eat a full dinner immediately after my workout, although sometimes I am too full to eat a big meal. I am guessing that it might be best to add a bit more to my pre-workout meal and drop the shake, then have a full dinner right after the workout. Does this sound reasonable?
Thanks.
BU
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Aragon
In the beginning, you must make sure you're absorbing protein & carbs during training by virtue of either having consumed a) a full-sized solid prot/carb meal within appx 60-90 minutes of starting your training, or b) a small easily digested prot/carb meal or shake finished any point within appx 30 minutes of starting your training, or during training if you made a shake.
Understand that preW nutrition is just as important as postW nutrition from the standpoint of coinciding peak blood flow with peak plasma nutient levels. Put simply, it equates to better delivery of aminos & glucose into muscle, which in turn causes greater protein synthesis and inhibition of protein breakdown. I know that this gets kinda technical, but that's why preW is important, not just post.
If you covered either scenario a or b (doing both may be optimal for workouts approaching 90 minutes to 2hrs), then you purely & simply removed the urgency of the speed of postW nutrient absorption. Why? Because if you constructed your preW meal right (0.25g/lb for both protein & carbs), you'll still be on the tail end of the meal's absorption even at the end of your workout.
Alan - have you read nutrient timing? What do you think of their summation of the research on carbs/protein around the workout period. Berardi recommends their book, and recommends the pre/during and post workout shake. I personally am on a long term reduced calorie diet and thus don't use any kind of whey protein or pre/during workout supplements.
Alan,
Thank you very much for your in depth response. I usually have 1/2 cup cottage cheese and an apple about 45 minutes prior to my workout. Then, I have a protein/carb shake during my workout. I usually eat a full dinner immediately after my workout, although sometimes I am too full to eat a big meal. I am guessing that it might be best to add a bit more to my pre-workout meal and drop the shake, then have a full dinner right after the workout. Does this sound reasonable?
Thanks.
BU
How long have you been training, and what are your stats? This will give me some insight into the crux of how I might answer your question. My instinct is that you're too fixated on nutrient timing, and not fixated enough on net amounts of the macros by the end of the day.
Alan, I wanted to say that all your posts has been truly helpful and educational. Sincerely, it's a real pleasure to have you around.
It's a dirty job... but SOMEBODY'S gotta do it :p
On a serious note, I'm glad that my ramblings are actually helping. that's why I do this in the 1st place. When I go to sleep at night, I'd like to think that I positively impacted one or two lives. Minimum.
Alan - have you read nutrient timing? What do you think of their summation of the research on carbs/protein around the workout period. Berardi recommends their book, and recommends the pre/during and post workout shake. I personally am on a long term reduced calorie diet and thus don't use any kind of whey protein or pre/during workout supplements.
I have the book. Most of the principles apply to folks who get up & train within minutes after waking. Other than that, there's always gonna be what I call "previous meal influence", which greatly diminishes the importance of nutrient timing.
The importance of nuntrient timing really depends on just how frequent your meal are, and whether or not your hypercaloric (with a lot of carbs to throw around) or hypocaloric (with portneially a very limited allotment of carbs). the latter scenario can greatly benefit from nutrient timing. This subject can be complex, but really doesn't need to be.
Of specific note, vitamin C supplementation postW has been demonstrated to hinder recovery. This points to the possibility that the book might need some updating.
It's certainly not a bad book at all, in fact I've recommended it, but you have to keep it in the proper perspective. Slightly outdated in terms of micronutrient recommendatrions, & it doesn't necessarily apply to those who train in a "fed" state.
This is all great info. What about the case of long endurance workouts. Is there a good reason to take in sugary stuff after doing those, or is it just as beneficial to eat the whole foods??
Alan,
I am currently 5'10", 147lbs. w/ approx. 11% body fat. I have been training consistently for about 2 1/2 years. I started at about 129 lbs, and worked my way up to about 150 in about 1 1/2 years. For the past year, I have remained pretty steady in the upper 140's. I would certainly like to put on more weight. I think I have been getting too caught up in the supplements game, and some of your recent posts have helped me to start to realize this. Please let me know what other info. would be helpful. Thanks for your help.
BU
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Aragon
How long have you been training, and what are your stats? This will give me some insight into the crux of how I might answer your question. My instinct is that you're too fixated on nutrient timing, and not fixated enough on net amounts of the macros by the end of the day.
Of specific note, vitamin C supplementation postW has been demonstrated to hinder recovery.
Forgive me if im going too far off topc, but why/how does vitamin C supplementation postW hinder recovery? I used to do this so im just curious.
thanks
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"sometimes, good nutrition is more about preparation and displaying adaptability than it is about the food." -JB
Is this a subsitite for gatorade?
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