Diet, Nutrition and SupplementationPost here for supplement reviews or nutritional advice. If you're trying to get "ripped abz" THIS is where you should be.
I just got done reading some stuff on t-nation on BCAA's which got me thinking about adding some BCAA's to my nutrition program. Im in the middle of CW's Total Body Training right now but I will be cutting in about a month. From what i could gather, BCAA's are most useful during a cutting period but also may be beneficial during/after a workout.
I use ON Whey and to my surprise there is 5.5g of BCAA's per scoop. I use 2 scoops with malto for my pre/post workout shake, so im getting 11g of BCAA that i didn't realize i was getting. Is this just as good as taking the stand alone BCAA supplement? Should i hold off until i start cutting?
Berardi emphasizes using BCAA during the Get Shredded Diet to help maintain muscle mass during calorie restriction (severe). I've also heard other trainers say they use that as the main Post Workout Suppliment.
IMO, you should be good with the amount in your whey shake. When you cut, especially if it's something like the GSD, you may want to add a stand alone BCAA later in the day along with increased creatine.
I would suggest the tablets - they're big and you have to swallow a lot of them, but the powder doesn't dissolve and makes everything taste bitter.
BTW, I take a multivitamin that's labeled as "Sport" that has 5g in it.
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IMO- BCAAs are generally faster digesting than whey powder. Onz is not exactly the best quality out there, so the digestion process will be slower.
I have found BCAAs during extended workouts (with dextrose) really work well. Also, the pre and post are generally immediately before and after...BCAAs will be ideal for that situation.
Stopping catabolism during extreme dieting.....eh....pretty debatable. I know Poliquin also advocates BCAAs for that.
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I would suggest the tablets - they're big and you have to swallow a lot of them, but the powder doesn't dissolve and makes everything taste bitter.
Yeah ive read some bad things about the powder and not dissolving. Where do you get your tablets? Is there anything cheaper the Biotest's BCAA in tablet/pill form?
Vitamin Shoppe has them - they're basically the powder put into a capsule. I, personally like the Biotest brand, you don't have to take as many and I've found them realitively low-cost comparitively. I'm not big on swallowing 4-6 pills at a time. 2 I can deal with much better. Same goes for fish oil.
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Two Bears Dadda? Two Bears Benno, just two. ______________________________ ___________
There are three things in my life which I really love: God, my family, and baseball. The only problem - once baseball season starts, I change the order around a bit. ~Al Gallagher, 1971
I just got done reading some stuff on t-nation on BCAA's which got me thinking about adding some BCAA's to my nutrition program. Im in the middle of CW's Total Body Training right now but I will be cutting in about a month. From what i could gather, BCAA's are most useful during a cutting period but also may be beneficial during/after a workout.
I use ON Whey and to my surprise there is 5.5g of BCAA's per scoop. I use 2 scoops with malto for my pre/post workout shake, so im getting 11g of BCAA that i didn't realize i was getting. Is this just as good as taking the stand alone BCAA supplement? Should i hold off until i start cutting?
Thanks!
If you're consuming a lot of high-quality protein from animal sources and/or protein powder (appx bodyweight g's), you're already consuming high levels of BCAA. Supping beyond that is a flat-out waste of money.
If you're consuming a lot of high-quality protein from animal sources and/or protein powder (appx bodyweight g's), you're already consuming high levels of BCAA. Supping beyond that is a flat-out waste of money.
I obviously know you're kidding, but here's the funny part. Most forum dwellers take it as a GIVEN that they should be supping BCAAs. Yay for hype and marketing. As for BCAA surrounding training, I just calculated the amount of BCAA I take in my pre-post whey/milk/oats/strawberry workout shake: 25g. Do I really think supping extra free form BCAA on top of that is gonna do jack diddly shit? Nope.
Alan, the part that I'm curious about is this... It's sometimes suggested to take them just before, during, after a workout, like it's some magic pill.
First of all, I don't get what the magic is supposed to be doing. Energy? Build muscle? Stop muscle breakdown?
This is hypothetical, of course. I belief, that if anything, the benefits are small and likely not worth the dough.
Purely anecdotal, but if I'm really hungry (was hungry at 3 hours, but still worked another 1.5) and down a protein shake, it takes a good 40 minutes until I feel better. How is it that 20 calories worth of BCAAs taken during a workout is going to effect anything?
As for BCAA surrounding training, I just calculated the amount of BCAA I take in my pre-post whey/milk/oats/strawberry workout shake: 25g. Do I really think supping extra free form BCAA on top of that is gonna do jack diddly shit? Nope.
Alan, I have question also. A few years back, the concept of incomplete proteins was brought up, in regards to Nat, but I was told, with a few exceptions, it's pretty much applicible to any non-meat, non-lactation, non-pre-embryonic protein source.
What is your take on the idea? And does non-animal sources, such as oats, have BCAAs?
Alan, the part that I'm curious about is this... It's sometimes suggested to take them just before, during, after a workout, like it's some magic pill.
And many people have been led to believe it is, so they spend their hard-earned cash on it that could have gone to cuts of meat. Or protein powder, both of which have BCAA plus the rest of the EAAs, plus a lot of other beneficial cofactors.
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First of all, I don't get what the magic is supposed to be doing. Energy? Build muscle? Stop muscle breakdown?
Circulating BCAA are oxidized during exercise. So indeed, we need to replenish BCAA. But now for the kicker -- the rate of carbohydrate & fat oxidation during exercise is 10-20x the rate of BCAA oxidation. Furthermore, carbohydrate alone during training can prevent the oxidation of BCAA, which is a minor event to begin with. The most recent research indicates that the oxidation of BCAA is not a major contributing factor to energy expenditure during exercise. Supplemental BCAA have failed repeatedly to show performance enhancing benefits compared to adequate macronutrition, which already contains adequate BCAA levels.
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This is hypothetical, of course. I belief, that if anything, the benefits are small and likely not worth the dough.
Purely anecdotal, but if I'm really hungry (was hungry at 3 hours, but still worked another 1.5) and down a protein shake, it takes a good 40 minutes until I feel better. How is it that 20 calories worth of BCAAs taken during a workout is going to effect anything?
It's not going to affect anything unless you're comparing pre-workout BCAA to training on an empty stomach after an overnight fast. In your case, you're already absorbing glucose & aminos into the bloodstream. There's a finite rate that these fuels can even enter circulation and eventually taken up by the tissues. Supplemental BCAA on top of your shake (which contains BCAA already) is a nice way to piss money down the toilet.
Alan, I have question also. A few years back, the concept of incomplete proteins was brought up, in regards to Nat, but I was told, with a few exceptions, it's pretty much applicible to any non-meat, non-lactation, non-pre-embryonic protein source.
What is your take on the idea? And does non-animal sources, such as oats, have BCAAs?
"Incompletes" from plant sources can be combined within a day to form "completes" and provide a decent profile for recovery & growth. Obviously, they aren't as favorable as animal protein. Even if some do contain all essential AAs (hemp, soy), the amounts and proportion are typically inferior.
As for non-animal BCAA, indeed they are abundant in nature. For example, a half cup of peanuts has 3g BCAA. 1.5 cups of edamame (soy beans) has 3g BCAA as well.
I saw at least one study suggesting that it might battle DOMS though and since I was sore for days after leg days, I was willing to give it a try. I'll see how that goes.
i bought a bottle of BCAA's a while ago before i learned better. i've been using it in my PWO shakes and DOMS are still as present as ever...(damn Alwyn and his Hyper routines )
Nutraceutical effects of branched-chain amino acids on skeletal muscle.
Shimomura Y, Yamamoto Y, Bajotto G, Sato J, Murakami T, Shimomura N, Kobayashi H, Mawatari K.
BCAA catabolism in skeletal muscle is regulated by the branched-chain alpha-keto acid dehydrogenase (BCKDH) complex, located at the second step in the BCAA catabolic pathway. The activity of the BCKDH complex is regulated by a phosphorylation/dephosphorylat ion cycle. Almost all of BCKDH complex in skeletal muscle under normal and resting conditions is in an inactive/phosphorylated state, which may contribute to muscle protein synthesis and muscle growth. Exercise activates the muscle BCKDH complex, resulting in enhanced BCAA catabolism. Therefore, exercise may increase the BCAA requirement. It has been reported that BCAA supplementation before exercise attenuates the breakdown of muscle proteins during exercise in humans and that leucine strongly promotes protein synthesis in skeletal muscle in humans and rats, suggesting that a BCAA supplement may attenuate muscle damage induced by exercise and promote recovery from the damage. We have examined the effects of BCAA supplementation on delayed-onset muscle soreness (DOMS) and muscle fatigue induced by squat exercise in humans. The results obtained showed that BCAA supplementation prior to squat exercise decreased DOMS and muscle fatigue occurring for a few days after exercise. These findings suggest that BCAAs may be useful for muscle recovery following exercise.
Of course BCAAs preworkout are gonna to be more beneficial than placebo treatments, for whatever parameter you choose, be it DOMS or other. In the study you're talking about, 5g BCAA was compared with 5g carbs or 1g green tea powder. All subjects were given a dose of 25g carbs in addition to the experimental treatments... The only treatment containing a nitrogen component (which could EASILY have been accomplished with other protein sources) was the one that guarded against DOMS. This is a no-brainer. Who do you know personally that trains without preworkout protein?
What I would personally take away from those results is this -- 5g BCAA is about the equivalent cost of 1 scoop of whey, which contains 15g more protein, all the rest of the EAAs, and a scoop of whey also contains...(drum roll)... about 5g BCAA.
Let me also reiterate that there are other beneficial cofactors and antiox benefit in whey, versus just BCAA. And if the extra 60 calories near the training bout bothers you, then perhaps you should re-think your calorie placement strategy. I look at whey as "BCAA-Plus". It's got BCAA plus a whole lot more, for the same price on a per-gram-of-BCAA basis.
Alan, I know you mentioned a serving of peanuts has 3g BCAA, what about almonds? I tend to eat more almonds than peanuts.
Also, this is probably another topic entirely, but ive heard the BCAA/creatine combo works very well while in caloric defecit to preserve muscle mass. I plan on trying to cut some fat in about a month or so, and im not currently taking BCAA or creatine....would it be a good idea to start taking creatine soley for a cutting cycle?
Ive gotten very lean in the past but i fear i sacraficed muscle mass, so im just looking for a smarter way of going about it.
Of course BCAAs preworkout are gonna to be more beneficial than placebo treatments, for whatever parameter you choose, be it DOMS or other. In the study you're talking about, 5g BCAA was compared with 5g carbs or 1g green tea powder. All subjects were given a dose of 25g carbs in addition to the experimental treatments... The only treatment containing a nitrogen component (which could EASILY have been accomplished with other protein sources) was the one that guarded against DOMS. This is a no-brainer. Who do you know personally that trains without preworkout protein?
What I would personally take away from those results is this -- 5g BCAA is about the equivalent cost of 1 scoop of whey, which contains 15g more protein, all the rest of the EAAs, and a scoop of whey also contains...(drum roll)... about 5g BCAA.
Let me also reiterate that there are other beneficial cofactors and antiox benefit in whey, versus just BCAA. And if the extra 60 calories near the training bout bothers you, then perhaps you should re-think your calorie placement strategy. I look at whey as "BCAA-Plus". It's got BCAA plus a whole lot more, for the same price on a per-gram-of-BCAA basis.
That's really interesting, thanks. I didn't even think about the fact that they usually compared to something that didn't have protein.
So what we need Bryan Chung to do is to compare pre-exercise intake of whey vs bcaa vs milk vs isocaloric sports drink in trained subjects after a mixed meal. Don't make us wait too long Bryan !
Alan, I know you mentioned a serving of peanuts has 3g BCAA, what about almonds? I tend to eat more almonds than peanuts.
Also, this is probably another topic entirely, but ive heard the BCAA/creatine combo works very well while in caloric defecit to preserve muscle mass. I plan on trying to cut some fat in about a month or so, and im not currently taking BCAA or creatine....would it be a good idea to start taking creatine soley for a cutting cycle?
Ive gotten very lean in the past but i fear i sacraficed muscle mass, so im just looking for a smarter way of going about it.
A half cup of almonds has about 2g BCAA. I personally wouldn't fixate on BCAA, but rather total protein grams. I agree with you that creatine is effective, and it's pretty much personal preference whether you decide to use it or not. I personally don't like how it bloats my face. I don't have a lean face to begin with, so creatine makes me look like an eskimo, lol. If you have no issues with creatine & bloating, have at it if you want.
But like I said, rather than fixating on BCAA for a cut, which is really an exercise in "parts minus the whole". If you wanna cut smart, I'd focus on a couple of things: 1) Total amount of protein per day -- get in 1-1.5g/lb target weight, and 2) Realistic expectations of rate of progress. The following are progress rates that typically allow for LBM maintenance or even gain during fat loss:
Newbies can get roughly 3% fat loss a month (4.5-8 lbs) without muscle loss. Intermediates should be happy with roughly a 2 percent decrease per month (about 3-4 lbs) while maintaining their lean mass. Super-advanced guys lean or who are already really close to their potential should be happy with a mere 1% drop per month.
Some trainees can and will do better than those numbers, just don't stiffly set your expectations up for it. If you're losing weight too quickly, chances are better than not you're giving up muscle. A good gauge of muscle maintenance during a cut is strength levels. If you're losing fat but maintaining your lifts, that's ideal. Most people drop weight way too fast to ever experience that, and yup, most people lose unnecessary heaps of LBM while they don't need to during a cut. Add kcals if you can't maintain strength or at least keep strength losses to a minimum.
That's really interesting, thanks. I didn't even think about the fact that they usually compared to something that didn't have protein.
So what we need Bryan Chung to do is to compare pre-exercise intake of whey vs bcaa vs milk vs isocaloric sports drink in trained subjects after a mixed meal. Don't make us wait too long Bryan !
Considering that Bryan is in the midst of a residency in plastic surgery, I wouldn't hold my breath for it
On the subject of experimentation, you can consider my personal case study as food for thought. I'm one of the few who have actually used a lot free-form BCAA after buying into the hype. After investigating of the evidence behind the claims, I dumped it from the regimen to see if my progress would continue. Guess what? It did.
On the subject of experimentation, you can consider my personal case study as food for thought. I'm one of the few who have actually used a lot free-form BCAA after buying into the hype. After investigating of the evidence behind the claims, I dumped it from the regimen to see if my progress would continue. Guess what? It did.
Great stuff Alan, I am glad I held off on buying BCAA's as a supplement. I am getting plenty in my Whey. Thanks!
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A study found that men supplementing with BCAA's between meals in addition to pre and post workout, had better progress. I found it on google scholar, but I don't remember where!
A study found that men supplementing with BCAA's between meals in addition to pre and post workout, had better progress. I found it on google scholar, but I don't remember where!
Doesn't do much to my position that if you're consuming a high amount of protein already (bodyweight g's & up), those BCAA ain't gonna do diddly. In the event of a high meal frequency in addition to a high protein intake, which is typical of athletes & active folks, they will do even LESS than diddly.
"My thoughtsuring weight training, a very small amount of energy is utilized from protein. During low intensity long duration activity, the use of BCAA for energy is increased. So do we need BCAA supplementation? I think probably not if you are consuming the huge amounts of protein seen in most athletes’ diets. BCAA may be beneficial if following low calorie diets, performing large volumes of training, or participating in high intensity activities. My nutritional programs rarely recommend BCAA supplementation (note for every 100 grams of quality protein ingested, you get approximately 15–20 grams of BCAA).
Michael Gleeson (2005) recently reported that the majority of later studies on BCAA using various exercise and treatment designs and several forms of administration of BCAA (infusion, oral, and with and without carbohydrates) have failed to find a performance-enhancing effect. No valid scientific evidence supports the commercial claims that orally ingested BCAA have an anti-catabolic effect during and after exercise in humans or that BCAA supplements may accelerate the repair of muscle damage after exercise.
Supplement companies want you to take a bunch of amino acids so you can getter bigger and stronger (hopefully you don’t believe that nonsense).
It seems like leucine stimulates MPS and offers benefits independent of isolecuine and valine. Why not just supplement with leucine? Many athletes do use leucine as a supplement (remember the study also indicated a transient effect with leucine supplementation). If you are eating a sufficient quantity of quality proteins, you are probably receiving adequate amounts of leucine to provide the benefits mentioned above. Leucine is the most abundant indispensable amino acid in many protein foods."
As with Many Testosterone recommendations 100% BS.
Thanks for the input, I am holding off on the BCAA for now and will start taking creatine again for the rest of my bulk and then while cutting.
Also, im heading to the beach in a few months, for pure vanity's sake, how far in advance should i stop taking creatine in order to not feel bloated while at the beach..or get rid of the few extra lbs of water weight? A few days? Would that even be necessary?
In theory, creatine swells muscle fibers, not fat, with water. You shouldn't feel bloated and you shouldn't stop taking it our you'll look less muscular.
Likely, you'll see no physical changes to your appearance unless you have a muscular face, like Alan does.
so if BCAAs do have very limited usefulness, and say someone were to have about a pound or so of the stuff kicking around that they bought when they were more impressionable- purely hypothetical of course- how would I get the best use out of them?
Just toss a little in here and there till its gone or just give up and make a very expensive sand castle?
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In theory, creatine swells muscle fibers, not fat, with water. You shouldn't feel bloated and you shouldn't stop taking it our you'll look less muscular.
Likely, you'll see no physical changes to your appearance unless you have a muscular face, like Alan does.
Lost Dog's posts have the best punchlines, bar none.
BCAA question
uring weight training, a very small amount of energy is utilized from protein. During low intensity long duration activity, the use of BCAA for energy is increased. So do we need BCAA supplementation? I think probably not if you are consuming the huge amounts of protein seen in most athletes’ diets. BCAA may be beneficial if following low calorie diets, performing large volumes of training, or participating in high intensity activities. My nutritional programs rarely recommend BCAA supplementation (note for every 100 grams of quality protein ingested, you get approximately 15–20 grams of BCAA). 
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