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I'd like to get some of our resident experts opinions on this info from Marc McDougal, I like his stuff and have always pretty much agreed with him, but this struck me as really different.
Quote:
Q: What are your thoughts on carbohydrates in the first meal of the day? I’ve heard people say this is an optimal time for carbs due to the overnight fast which leaves glycogen low and insulin sensitivity high. I want to have carbs to take advantage of this, but I always end up sleepy afterwards, or crashing in a few hours. Any thoughts?
A: For most people, I’m against non-veggie carbs in the morning. Although this is contrary to popular belief, my reasons speak for themselves. The main problem is that we practically have an Adrenal Fatigue epidemic on our hands. People don’t sleep enough, take in too many stimulants, use poor recovery methods from training, and don’t nourish their bodies the way they need to for optimal hormone function.
How does this relate to carbs in the morning? Adrenal Fatigue leads to excessively high cortisol levels, and cortisol directly impairs insulin sensitivity (1), (2). This becomes the worst time to put carbs in your body, as you are going to be highly insulin resistant, and a breakfast full of carbs will lead to fat gain, energy disturbances, and further impairment of insulin signaling.
Even if you take care of your body and are not experiencing any sort of adrenal fatigue, cortisol levels are always highest in the morning, at least 3x higher, and a whopping 10x higher than at night!
I can’t count how many clients I’ve had switch their morning meals full of things like oatmeal, fruits, cereal, etc., to something like scrambled eggs with chopped veggies. The typical outcome is 5 or more pounds of fat loss within 10-14 days, and a huge increase in energy during the day.
__________________
I do not workout. I TRAIN.
I do not eat. I FEED.
I do not sleep. I RECHARGE.
My greatest fear in this life is the fear of being ordinary.
Hey, Jason. I'm no expert, but I think that the whole morning carbs thing is wishful thinking.
There may be some trivial evidence, in a perfect environment, under perfect conditions, to show that that's when they are best utilized, but still...
Your reference seems just as valid, and a more likely state of affairs for most people.
I think people see fat loss success by sticking to the morning carbs because they artificially limited themselves to once per day. But "lunch carbs" would likely be just as effective. Would they have been even more effective with no carb meals? Maybe.
But, it's the difference between living your life and suffering through a diet that you can't handle for long. Perfect eating isn't all it's cracked up to be.
I'm no expert, but I don't like starchy carbs in the morning. Not from a body comp standpoint, but because eating oatmeal/any starchy carb for breakfast makes me really tired. If I eat eggs, than I have plenty of energy.
I think it depends on the person. If carbs make you feel good, than have them. If not, then don't.
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Audentes Fortunas Juvat
"Focus on making the 5 lifts stronger and getting enough food. There will be plenty of time to worry about glycemic indexes, PERs, and Bulgarian Split squats later. Much later."-Mark Rippetoe
Yes, i would also lke to hear Mike's opinion on this...i admit i'm kind of skeptical...maybe its cause in the past few years i've heard other wise....but i'm open to discussion, i mean i remember david barr saying he has a serving of surge once he wakes up
my big argument is "how much is enough"? I'm more than willing to admit that we're carb depleted in the morning. What I'm not ready to commit to is what the best way to remedy that is or if it really matters. Like most things IMO we're at an "it depends" state of mind.
First question would be how much carbs are going to get you from "too low" to "just right".
Second one is "are we eating that much or more than that"?
Third is "when is the workout?", or "when do I need to be topped off?"
if you're working out in the afternoon\evening, and eating a reasonable amount of carbs you're going to be fine no matter how you spread it out to that point.
if you're working out first thing in the morning, you're not going to get maxed out no matter what so get your 30g and rock out. Fuck cortisol you need some sugar.
Never mind how you react to it will be different than I or anyone else by some degree. *rambling off* This just seems to be one of those "picking the fly shit out of the pepper" moments.
If you are eating a complete protein with that carbohydrates (ie oatmeal with fruit and egg whites) Then you in turn will lower the GI of those carbohydrates. Therefore releasing less insulin, and less cortisol into the system.
I am aware of the height of cortisol in the morning that could yes lead to such a crash but not if you follow the principle of macro nutrient pairing which deficit or no deficit should be followed to help control insulin spikes and keep steady energy levels.
Basically stop the high insulin spike, stop high production of cortisol. Pretty simple. This is of course for a normal healthy individual.
I will say though that with my own clients and with people I advise in general that their results shoot up very quickly by simply adding protein to their breakfast as most breakfasts are indeed notorious with being carb heavy.
I think the running theme and key here should always be to pair any meal with a protein/fat source. This proper balance of macros lead to a proper balance of energy levels.
You also have to take into account what kind of individual here you are applying this rules too. For example, if you restrict complex carbs for someone who is highly active then you will more than likely UP their chances of extra cortisol release because it is a reactor to a highly chemical stressed state of non-repair.
Basically there are so many ways to "piss off" this hormone. You best line of attack is to...
-Keep macros balanced by always having a complete protein source at every meal.
-Avoid fasted cardio if you are someone who has sensitive energy levels and insulin resistances
-Get proper sleep of at least 7-8 hours nightly
-Relax and repair both body and mind from harsh stressors
-Avoid overtraining that leads to adrenal exhaustion
-Avoid long periods of a caloric deficit or taking calories to low
-Have a ratio of 2:1 of simple carbs and complete protein immediately following your PW
-HYDRATION,HYDRATION,HYDRATION
I'd like to get some of our resident experts opinions on this info from Marc McDougal, I like his stuff and have always pretty much agreed with him, but this struck me as really different.
Based on your quote, this McDougal guy sounds like he doesn't know what in the blue hell he's talking about. In agreement with Gobbla, there are too many "it depends" clauses to issue such blanket statements.
Today on the news the just mentioned (wasnt even a news story)
'Eating sugar for breakfast can lower your stress for the day'
Some crazed study at the university of calgary I guess.. I used to be an ommlette and veggies breakfast guy (scared of carbs).. Now im eating cereal, milk, maybe some eggs etc. I actually feel much better and my lifts in the gym are going up again.
I'd like to get some of our resident experts opinions on this info from Marc McDougal, I like his stuff and have always pretty much agreed with him, but this struck me as really different.
and a breakfast full of carbs will lead to fat gain,
what kind of a stupid a****d comment is that Id expect to see something like that on a Womens Mag site not a fitness site
__________________
BFG
"The time for talking has passed, actions are speaking louder than words."
Hey, Jason. I'm no expert, but I think that the whole morning carbs thing is wishful thinking.
There may be some trivial evidence, in a perfect environment, under perfect conditions, to show that that's when they are best utilized, but still...
Your reference seems just as valid, and a more likely state of affairs for most people.
I think people see fat loss success by sticking to the morning carbs because they artificially limited themselves to once per day. But "lunch carbs" would likely be just as effective. Would they have been even more effective with no carb meals? Maybe.
But, it's the difference between living your life and suffering through a diet that you can't handle for long. Perfect eating isn't all it's cracked up to be.
You'll achieve fat loss if you eat carbs morning noon and night as long as you are in deficit the only slightest difference timing can make if any is going to be ounces differential anyway
if you want carbs at breakfast eat them, if they are making you sleepy its cos you are overeating or are not getting enough sleep and it would happen anyway
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BFG
"The time for talking has passed, actions are speaking louder than words."
You'll achieve fat loss if you eat carbs morning noon and night as long as you are in deficit the only slightest difference timing can make if any is going to be ounces differential anyway
if you want carbs at breakfast eat them, if they are making you sleepy its cos you are overeating or are not getting enough sleep and it would happen anyway
I agree with you. I went from 235 to 190 on a pretty low fat, high carb diet. I don't think it affected my body composition much, either. Would my current approach have worked better? Only if I could have stuck with it. At the time, I would not have.
I don't get sleepy from carbs. I do get hungry. How much of that is in my head, I cannot know.
A lot of popular diets around here use sort of a self regulation approach to limiting cals vs counting calories. I think it's less likely that one will overindulge on protein and veggies/fruit than on traditional breakfast carbs.
I still think most people will do better with lower (not eliminated) grain and starchy carb intakes, replacing those foods with more veggies. I think it helps in keeping calorie intake under control and people in better health.
My "wishful thinking" comment extends to having grains and starchy carbs anytime. Not just breakfast. You're just minimizing the damage at breakfast. Maybe.
Several people have pointed out that there are flaws in my "paleo diet" way of thinking, but they never actually tell me the flaws, so therefore, I'm obviously right. :p
I suppose for most individuals, I'd just say try it and see how you feel. I know it made a huge difference for me when I started eating some protein for breakfast instead of a big bowl of sugar-frosted whatever (this was back when I was fat).
Mike's recommendation at the Summit was to include some whole-grain carbs at breakfast, and the study cited showed improved cognitive ability. We're NOT talking about a monster bowl of Cap'n Crunch, but 1/3 cup of oatmeal. That plus a cup of water yields one small bowl of steel cut oats. 1/3 cup of rolled oats in yogurt isn't a lot. But it's enough to get the neurons firing.
I assume the rest of breakfast would be a complete protein source, as Leigh mentioned.
__________________ The trick is in what one emphasizes. We either make ourselves miserable, or we make ourselves happy. The amount of work is the same. -- Carlos Castaneda
As all of you that attended the summit know I am a big fan of whole grain carbohydrates in the morning. Cortisol levels are elevated in the morning but nothing supraphysiologic that is going to cause all you nutrients to be stored as fat (that's hype). Your glycogen stores are low as well. Filling those are a priority for your body so your carbs will go there not your hips.
From my experience working/talking with people they do a lot of other things wrong during the day and then blame it on the AM starches. C'mon...oatmeal isn't bad for you.
__________________ Mike Roussell
Nutrition Doctoral Student
Don't forget to listen to the latest episode of Max-Out Radio featuring Zach Even-Esh.
Oatmeal is like cinder blocks for your furnace. The furnace being your metabolism to negate a good starchy carb first thing is like trying to light the fire with damp wood. It will get there eventualy but in the meantime you have froze your nuts off
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BFG
"The time for talking has passed, actions are speaking louder than words."
I can’t count how many clients I’ve had switch their morning meals full of things like oatmeal, fruits, cereal, etc., to something like scrambled eggs with chopped veggies. The typical outcome is 5 or more pounds of fat loss within 10-14 days, and a huge increase in energy during the day.
If that doesn't set off the bullshit alarm bells, then what does???
I'm really naughty. Many times I have protein, fat, AND carbs all at once for breakfast.
I suppose for most individuals, I'd just say try it and see how you feel. I know it made a huge difference for me when I started eating some protein for breakfast instead of a big bowl of sugar-frosted whatever (this was back when I was fat).
not having sugar coated cereals would have had the same effect thop would it not
__________________
BFG
"The time for talking has passed, actions are speaking louder than words."
[quote=BamaDaveI'm really naughty. Many times I have protein, fat, AND carbs all at once for breakfast. [/QUOTE]
WHAT?! And you're still alive? Impossible!
__________________
I do not workout. I TRAIN.
I do not eat. I FEED.
I do not sleep. I RECHARGE.
My greatest fear in this life is the fear of being ordinary.
I had been real strict on eating P/F omeletes only for breakfast for a few months and decided a couple of weeks ago that I gotta get some carbs in during breakfast. They make me feel way better for the rest of the day. I have been eating a whole wheat bagel with lean ham, some sort of fruit, and a protein shake each morning for a bit. I then eat my P/F omelete for lunch because I totally dig them. Doing this really hasn't messed with my ratios too much, and at the end of the day I'm still getting enough protein and my calories are where they are supposed to be...I think.
OK, this joke isn't even about morning carbs, but about combining carbs with fat. But it's funny and this thread made me remember it, so here ya go.
Man Awakes to Find Himself Obese
Albany, NY – Medical personnel, with help from the local fire department, removed a 900-pound man from his home in downtown Albany and transported him to Presbyterian Hospital.
Grant Tonkin, 27, unable to move from his bed because of his immense girth, had reported difficulty breathing and called emergency services. Because of his size, fire department personnel had to cut a 6-foot by 6-foot hole in the man’s house and carry him out on a gurney.
What was unusual about the case is that Tonkin, only a week before, had reportedly weighed in a 220 pounds and had a scant 7-percent body fat.
When asked to explain the phenomenon of how a man could gain almost 700 pounds of blubber in one week, attending physician Lawrence Katz explained, “Apparently, the young man, against T-mag nutritionist John Berardi’s explicit instructions, combined fats and carbs in his bedtime meal. While this type of dietary transgression might not cause repercussions quite this severe in the normal male, Tonkin made possibly the worst food choices available, blending together a serving of Fruit Loops, a Krispy Dreme donut, and a can of Bud.
The next morning, he found himself transformed into a regular tubby; a real whale.”
Tonkin, when asked to comment, replied, “I can’t believe it. I never took that combining fats and carbs together in one meal stuff seriously, but I’ll never doubt John Berardi and T-mag again.”
Tonkin hopes to return to his pervious weight by doing T-mag’s Fat Fast diet for the next millennium or until the sun explodes, whichever comes first.
The original author seems to be weighing a lot on adrenal dysfunction as related to lack of sleep. Gobbla touched on the other variables not addressed. Interesting look at thing though.
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"If you do most of your training on a balance board, a Swiss Ball, or a Bosu ball, you'll have a tremendous core and a small, weak body that we'll all laugh at."
TC Luoma
not having sugar coated cereals would have had the same effect thop would it not
No, it didn't. There were times I ate a carb-rich breakfast without sugar or protein but it didn't have the same effect at all. Eating protein first thing in the morning definitely makes me feel better than any other kind of breakfast.
__________________ The trick is in what one emphasizes. We either make ourselves miserable, or we make ourselves happy. The amount of work is the same. -- Carlos Castaneda
Never again will i have Krispy Kreme Donuts, Fruit Loops and Bud together
Reminds me of that scene in Raising Arizona where John Goodman is sitting at the table, eating his cereal, drinking a beer, smoking a cigarette, and chewing gum. Good morning!
Morning carbs not as good as we thought?
If that doesn't set off the bullshit alarm bells, then what does???
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