Charles Poliquin's New Article - JP Fitness Forums

Michael Roussell · 12-11-2006, 03:59 PM

I just glanced through Charles Polquin's new article and I noticed a misleading/incorrect statement that is important to note:

"4. Fish oils diminish C-reactive proteins..."

There is an epidemilogical study that shows that people that eat more fish have lower levels of C-reactive protein (CRP) HOWEVER data from randomized clinical trials (the "gold standard" of research) show that EPA/DHA have no effect on CRP (I wish it did). Alpha linolenic acid (ALA) as found in flax does have powerful CRP reducing effects.

Sorry if this is really science nerdy but I felt the need to point it out.

Frank.S · 12-11-2006, 04:29 PM

Im not sure if I can agree with alot of that article..

I mean..

45g of fish oils per day???
405Calories coming from fish oil?

Thats going to be around 1/5th of my dieting intake just from fish oils.. Thats some serious food I would be missing out on! I wonder what would happen if I tried it...

Kevin Larrabee · 12-11-2006, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank.S

Thats going to be around 1/5th of my dieting intake just from fish oils.. Thats some serious food I would be missing out on! I wonder what would happen if I tried it...

Grow Gills most likely.

But at least you will be able to breath under water.

SunshineChick · 12-11-2006, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank.S

Im not sure if I can agree with alot of that article..

I mean..

45g of fish oils per day???
405Calories coming from fish oil?

Thats going to be around 1/5th of my dieting intake just from fish oils.. Thats some serious food I would be missing out on! I wonder what would happen if I tried it...

I thought the same thing...for me on a diet that would essentially be my entire days fat. Mike-you're the "fish oil guy"-whaddya think?

Michael Roussell · 12-11-2006, 06:09 PM

I think it is a typo. I think he meant to say 3.0-4.5g/d because later in the article he says that he takes 5 flameout caps a day when traveling and that would be about 3.0-4.5 g EPA/DHA a day.

Canadian_Bacon · 12-11-2006, 06:12 PM

You would probably get very ill.. I once experimented w/ 7ish grams of epa/dha per day and I ran into a few issues with blood clotting (or lack there of) and ended up at the hospital once.

Ian Kay · 12-11-2006, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Roussell

I think it is a typo. I think he meant to say 3.0-4.5g/d because later in the article he says that he takes 5 flameout caps a day when traveling and that would be about 3.0-4.5 g EPA/DHA a day.

Actually, I think he does mean 45 grams a day. He mentions 3 tablespoons a day, instead of the 45 capsules you'd have to take.

That's a LOT.

Michael Roussell · 12-12-2006, 09:31 AM

The problem here is the same problem that I mentioned in my 27 Nutrition Facts article on T-Nation

2. I hate it when people give fish oil recommendations and talk in terms of capsules or grams of fish oil. Talk in terms of EPA and DHA! Otherwise it just confuses people! There is no standard concentration of fish oil so saying that you take 3 one gram capsules means crap. EPA and DHA is what matters.

Charles didn't specify EPA/DHA and if you go to his website and look at the liquid fish oil he sells you can't see the nutritional facts to see how pure it is. I would assume (it is a pretty safe assumption) that Charles' fish oil is 30% pure and thus 45 grams of fish oil is only 13.5g EPA/DHA. Thus he is recommending 9-13.5 grams of EPA/DHA. This isn't that outrageous in that studies have found that 25-30g EPA/DHA is well tolerated without adverse bleeding effets. But as Canadian_Bacon has pointed out "results may vary". I wouldn't recommend that you follow Charles' recommendations using a 30% pure fish oil supplement as your exposure to potential toxins will be greatly increased. But if you choose a higher purity/potency product, increase you dosages in a stepwise manner over time, and spread your intake out across the day (I wouldn't consume more than 5 grams at a time) I'm sure you would see a benefit....to what extent I'm not sure because the most I've ever consumed was 7 grams EPa/DHA per day......

Oh yeah just a CYA...check with your doctor first.

Ian Kay · 12-12-2006, 09:41 AM

So Mike, when you say "purity", you mean the percentage of EPA/DHA per gram?

If that's the case, then mine is 50% pure. (Vitamin World's Super Omega-3)

I had a discussion with Alan the other week on this, and he was of the opinion that, like so many other products, more isn't always better, including fish oil.

What I take now is 6 pills = 3g epa/dha.

Obviously you don't know my specifics, but would you say that if I slowly ramped up to say 6g epa/dha, that I would feel noticeable differences? Would those be largely joint related? I know there are myriad benefits to the stuff, but what would be noticeable to me in the short run (over 4-6 month period)?

(I'm mainly just curious, but my asthma has been "less than under control" recently, and I'm curious as to how supplements might help.)

Michael Roussell · 12-12-2006, 10:00 AM

A rough inference of purity is potency (% of EPA/DHA per gram). 50% is not bad.

I agree that more is not alway better, even with my most loved fish oil. But if you are increasing the amount for a specific reason (e.g. improve asthma) then it can be warrented. If I were you would I move up to six grams EPA/DHA to see if it improved my asthma, yes.

The data with EPA/DHA and asthma is far from conclusive but it is suggestive (wow that was a vague statement!). You would notice the difference much sooner than 4-6 months. Red Blood cell levels of EPA/DHA can equilbrate in as little as 4 weeks (4-6wks is the range found in the literature). So I would imagine that if you were going to see a difference then you would see it by then.

Keep a journal so monitor the status of your asthma (inhaler use, frequency of chest tightness, response to exercise, etc) as that will be the marker of improvement in this situation.

Again...check with your doctor

-MR

Ian Kay · 12-12-2006, 10:07 AM

Thanks Mike.

I don't visit a doctor because I have no health insurance (he simply calls in my prescriptions)... this is one of the reasons I've "played doctor" on myself for the last couple years. So far, so good.

I think I will give the Asthma Project a whirl! (giving things "official" titles always helps me take them more seriously, hehe)

I'll track my use over the next week, then start the fish oil increase.

By the way, what's your opinion on the timing of fish oil, as far as meals go? If I take it right after a meal, does it matter when the meal is? I'm thinking post-workout probably isn't a good time, but after breakfast, lunch, mid-afternoon, dinner and before bed meals?

I'm keen on reducing my inhaler use, because it's rough on my throat (even with water), it depletes potassium (who knew?) and it's a pain in the ass!

Mohr Results · 12-12-2006, 04:49 PM

45 g of fish oil is absurd, BUT, like Mike said, it's really EPA/DHA that you should focus on not total omega's since it's easy to make a cheap product with useless fat. Mike mentioned that at least 50% should be EPA/DHA, but I'd like to see that even higher...I use Nordic Naturals. The two products I take of theirs are both 85% EPA/DHA, you'll never get those fishy burps, and you don't have to take as many capsules to have an effective dose. If you want to learn more about these quality products, I just did an interview with the Research Scientist at Nordic Naturals that I will be pubishing in an upcoming newsletter you can sign up for on my site.

Ian Kay · 12-12-2006, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mohr Results

45 g of fish oil is absurd, BUT, like Mike said, it's really EPA/DHA that you should focus on not total omega's since it's easy to make a cheap product with useless fat. Mike mentioned that at least 50% should be EPA/DHA, but I'd like to see that even higher...I use Nordic Naturals. The two products I take of theirs are both 85% EPA/DHA, you'll never get those fishy burps, and you don't have to take as many capsules to have an effective dose. If you want to learn more about these quality products, I just did an interview with the Research Scientist at Nordic Naturals that I will be pubishing in an upcoming newsletter you can sign up for on my site.

I'll check those out. Thanks!

for those who don't who this guy is:
Welcome Dr. Chris Mohr!!!

Jean-Paul · 12-12-2006, 09:13 PM

So if you were going to do the "Velocity Diet", rather than taking 21 fish oil capsules in one day (seems like a lot) every other day, you should look at the EPA/DHA... How much effective ingrediant is Shugart intending for you to get?

For the record, I'm not doing the VD... I'm just askin'.

allenkt · 12-12-2006, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean-Paul

So if you were going to do the "Velocity Diet", rather than taking 21 fish oil capsules in one day (seems like a lot) every other day, you should look at the EPA/DHA... How much effective ingrediant is Shugart intending for you to get?

For the record, I'm not doing the VD... I'm just askin'.

I completed the v-diet about 2 weeks ago and his latest updates suggest taking Flameout now. So only 4 pills/day instead of the old 21.

Ian Kay · 12-12-2006, 09:24 PM

JP, I'm guessing that Shugart is basing it on the 30% "purity" (180 EPA/ 120 DHA) of most capsules. 21 capsules would give a person 6.3 grams of combined EPA/DHA.

The original article was written before "Flameout" was released, so I'm just asuming that he would be talking about the "average pill" a user would find.

James Newman · 12-12-2006, 10:25 PM

I was having the discussion about Mr. Poliquin's recommendation with someone last night, actually. I am not expert in fish oil....but i do share Mr. Roussell's EPA/DHA rant. I don't like recommendations given in the terms "fish oil caps" or just plain grams. I too think it is an absurd recommendation in part because thre is no specification on amount of EPA/DHA and I plain and simply feel it is excessive. The studies that I have read where benefit to EPA/DHA supplementation were shown were nowhere near the dosages that Poliquin ^might^ be recommending.

The stairstep approach Mr. Roussell gave is similar to that which I recommended to the person I was talking to last night. Depending upon the dosage and tolerance and method of increase, there have been some reports of GI discomfort, nosebleed (?) easy bruising, increased attractiveness to the oppposite sex (just kidding on the last one - this post was way too serious)

Of course spreading the intake throughout the day and with meals is important. But this is stuff you guys already knew or Mr. Roussell already told you so I am going to stop rambling.

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Newman