Diet, Nutrition and SupplementationPost here for supplement reviews or nutritional advice. If you're trying to get "ripped abz" THIS is where you should be.
Mr Aragon is right, simplicity wins. But if you feel you must buy something else and want to spend a lot of money, Xtreme Formulations ICE is nice. I prefer the grape flavor.
Not to hijack, but on a similar note, in January I plan to tackle the program that Dave Tate designed for Berardi's "Christmas Gifts". There is a significant boost in volume to what I have been doing, and I was thinking of taking some BCAA peri-workout to really take advantage of it, and also to avoid having too much liquid in me.
With that in mind, which ones would be the most convenient mid-workout? What are the Biotest tabs like, Mike? Easily swallowed?
I actually just swallowed 5 BCAA tabs in one gulp. They are the same size as a Spike tab or Beta-7 Tab (if you have tried either of those products).
I haven't looked over that new program that you are talking about but if the workout are only 45-60 minutes then you wouldn't really need the BCAA's mid workout if you take some before and after. This will save you the hastle of popping tabs mid workout. I usually drink throughout my workout although the first couple Afterburn II sessions made me want to vomit. Purely for hydration purposes it is good to keep drinking. Are you obstaining from liquids for a particular reason (not to hijack the thread)?
-MR
__________________ Mike Roussell
Nutrition Doctoral Student
Don't forget to listen to the latest episode of Max-Out Radio featuring Zach Even-Esh.
I am not obstaining from liquids at all, but sometimes with higher sets and reps, my shakes tend to come back up a bit.
But hey, if you think a shake 20 minutes before and some BCAA immediately before and after would be good, then that solves my problem. These workouts shouldn't be more than 1:15.
But hey, if you think a shake 20 minutes before and some BCAA immediately before and after would be good, then that solves my problem. These workouts shouldn't be more than 1:15.
That would be perfect. If you find that you are running out of gas then just start sipping your PWO shake a little early.
__________________ Mike Roussell
Nutrition Doctoral Student
Don't forget to listen to the latest episode of Max-Out Radio featuring Zach Even-Esh.
But I think the true reality check of BCAA's questionable isolated use comes into play when you compare it pricewise & nutrientwise with whey, which is 25% BCAA. Each scoop of whey costs 45-50 cents. There's about 5g BCAA per 20g scoop of whey. This means that each gram of BCAA within whey costs 9-10 cents. When you take a look at the top selling brands of BCAA, it's about that same exact price range. For the same price per gram of BCAA, with whey you get not only BCAA but also the full spectrum of essential aminos -- plus a host of other beneficial co-factors. That's why lately I've been looking at whey as "BCAA-plus". Since making the switch to just dosing up the complete protein, I haven't seen any negative impact on my progress or those of my clients. Infact, bodycomp progress continues. Extra calories, yeah, but obviously nothing catastrophic or insurmountable. Also, consider what happens when those calories are translated into extra power output. Also consider that kcals can be cut elsewhere. Gastric distress? I once experimented with 6 scoops of whey during training with no ill effects. Not that this would be my regular protocol, I simply investigated the potential. Thus, isolated BCAA is overrated, overhyped. Not to mention, incomplete in comparison to other alternatives. But will people continue to buy in? The power of marketing says yes.
Alan, those are excellent points. I never even thuoght to look for BCAA counts in my usual whey. I just did, and it has 2g leucine per scoop!!!
Wow, I must say I'm seriously doubtful of the BCAA tablets now. In fact, I likely will NOT be buying any.
I'll read around a bit more before deciding, but I never realized!
You'd think since I read labels and articles all the time, I'd have put it together. I suppose I have fallen for some of the marketing ploys. "If it's isolated in pills, it must be better!"
Mike, if you have a counter to this, I'd love to hear it!
Alan, those are excellent points. I never even thuoght to look for BCAA counts in my usual whey. I just did, and it has 2g leucine per scoop!!!
Wow, I must say I'm seriously doubtful of the BCAA tablets now. In fact, I likely will NOT be buying any.
I'll read around a bit more before deciding, but I never realized!
You'd think since I read labels and articles all the time, I'd have put it together. I suppose I have fallen for some of the marketing ploys. "If it's isolated in pills, it must be better!"
Mike, if you have a counter to this, I'd love to hear it!
I hate to be the party pooper. It indeed would be so much more neato to be able to take some cool supps & have an edge over your previous protocol. I realize that dosing up on cheap ole whey that you already have just isn't as sexy as getting the latest/greatest BCAA on the market.
For comparison, Let's take a look at Xtend's fact sheet:
Quote:
Serving Size: 2 Scoops (11.5 grams)
Price of larger tub: $79.99 (price per serving $0.88)
Ingredients:
Pure microfiltered whey protein isolate
I bolded what both products have in common.
WPI has more BCAA content than Xtend when the serving size per pricepoint is matched. I even gave Xtend a little slack; if I matched the price per serving size exactly, the WPI's BCAA content would beat out Xtend's even more.
To Xtend's credit, it has glutamine (2.5g), citrulline malate (1g), & vitamin b6, WPI has none. However, WPI has the rest of the essential & nonessential aminos, & other bioactive microfractions not present in Xtend.
If I were to be cynical about this, citrulline malate (CM) was found to be effective for increasing aerobic capacity. Anaerobic effects remain to be measured. Not only that, the most recent studies on CM are funded by the French manufacturer of it under the trade name Stimol. Ah, but this is a common confounder in research. How valuable is the 2.5g glutamine per serving in Xtend? For purposes of building new muscle, probably nil. For therapeutic effects on gastrointestinal health, that dose is probably too low. As for the B6, although it's an essential co-factor for glycogen phosphorylase and certain enzymes in the alanine-glucose cycle, it hasn't been observed in research to enhance athletic performance. So far, it's all speculation based on circumstantial bits & pieces. There's also the inclusion of artificial sweeteners & colors that I'm not crazy about, regardless of dose.
On the optimistic side of Xtend, you can always count on the powerful placebo effect. Even non-nutritive flavored drinks taken in during training encourage the motivation to drink more, & thus better preserve fluid balance in endurance exercise. You can capitalize on psychosomatic effect even further by adding carbs to your Xtend dose, since carbohydrate receptors in the mouth act upon central mechanisms that facilitate ergogenesis. Sure, you can take Xtend during training on top of whatever else you take, but the supp's actual effect beyond the preW shake you're already absorbing will be more psychologically based than anything.
Funny you should mention the JB article, OG. I was just finishing it up when I checked back in here.
Seems like Berardi likes BCAAs, but there are too many "ifs". His conclusion says it all, that it "may" be helpful for "certain situations". Well, seeing as how I'm not an elite athlete and am on the shorter end of $$$, Alan's points are settling in deeper than Berardi's. Hell, if Berardi knew my specific situation, he may very well say "don't worry about the extra BCAAs".
Funny you should mention the JB article, OG. I was just finishing it up when I checked back in here.
Seems like Berardi likes BCAAs, but there are too many "ifs". His conclusion says it all, that it "may" be helpful for "certain situations". Well, seeing as how I'm not an elite athlete and am on the shorter end of $$$, Alan's points are settling in deeper than Berardi's. Hell, if Berardi knew my specific situation, he may very well say "don't worry about the extra BCAAs".
I'm glad you get it. My position is NOT very popular amongst fitness folks who have been dishing out duckets on BCAA for some time now. Heck I used to shell it out for BCAA my damnself. But why drink the bathwater without the whole baby in it? Science is science.
1. The article from J Nutr is a good one - actually the whole supplement on BCAA was good. That’s not a pun was a “supplement” to the actual issue
2. I agree that mega dosing on BCAA is a waste of money. Especially people that take 50-100g/d and don't think they are getting extra calories or glucose. Apparently they slept through gluconeogenesis.
3. Re: Xtend. I agree that add-ons to Xtend (i.e. CM and Glutamine) are pretty much throw-aways but the taste is good, it goes into solution, and it is not prohibitively expensive.
4. Upon briefly checking in on the BCAA/EAA supplementation literature a couple weeks ago I was surprised to see that the research regarding amino acid supplementation is rather mixed. Here's something that I found even more interesting and haven't had the chance to ask him about but Dr. Jose Antonio ran a study with EAA (or BCAA I can't remember exactly) and found no significant results yet he talks about on his radio show the efficacy of supplementing with EAA (essential amino acids).
5. I haven't read JB's article on BCAA's yet but I do agree with the conclusion Ian says he draws at the end of his article. I think that pure BCAA's do have a place in one's supplementation program in certain situations.
a. Dieting - Currently my calories are very low and I pop 5 Biotest BCAA tabs between meals. Placebo effect?? Don't really care because it is working
b. Change in Stressors - If someone is currently increasing their training volume (like you are Ian) then BCAA can be helpful in reducing soreness and aiding in recovery. If your wallet can only afford extra whey are you doomed? No. But that doesn't mean you should write off the effect of BCAA supplementation.
c. Sleeping - I mentioned this in a recent T-Nation article. I'm not a fan of eating in the middle of the night but I do keep a bottle of BCAA tabs next to my bed incase I do wake up. I won’t drink a protein shake here (tried it, hated it). Again will this make or break your training/nutrition? No. But will it give you an extra edge? Yes.
Other thing:
The whole mTor thing is overrated; it just explains an effect that we already saw. I know Alan agrees as I read his comments in a recent round table.
More research definitely needs to be done in this area especially to elucidate the actions of the other BCAA other than leucine.
I am faaaar from a BCAA expert but they are beneficial in certain situations contingent that the rest of your nutrition is in check.
I pretty much agree with Alan’s position, as it is similar to the one I hold.
__________________ Mike Roussell
Nutrition Doctoral Student
Don't forget to listen to the latest episode of Max-Out Radio featuring Zach Even-Esh.
I appreciate the response Mike. You guys are very civil around here (a good thing for the furtherment of mankind). And womankind, incase Lisa is listening.
I appreciate the response Mike. You guys are very civil around here (a good thing for the furtherment of mankind). And womankind, incase Lisa is listening.
Thanks for thinking of me! I'm reading and learning on this thread!
BCAA
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