Diet, Nutrition and SupplementationPost here for supplement reviews or nutritional advice. If you're trying to get "ripped abz" THIS is where you should be.
I am not a professional. Well in the fitness or athletic world anyway. But I am taking a good deal of supplements. Each of which on its own merit. However I feel that I may be overdoing it. So I woud like your opinion. I also have a few new ones due to my recent bouts with sinus infections and colds.
I am 36 years old currently doing NROL. I take the following:
1.MultiVitamin (night)
2.Fish oil - Obvious health reasons(morning and night)
3.Creatine - Health and fitness benefits(PWO)
4.Greens - Health benefits(morning snack shake)
5.ZMA - sleep and immune system support(night)
6.Vitamin C - immune system(morning)
7.Vitamin E - Immune sytstem(morning)
8.Glutamine - Immune system and recovery(morning)
9;Glucosamine - Joint support.(morning) I have been diagnosed with arthritis in my wrists. Have stopped taking it for a bit to see if I notice a difference.
10.BCAA's - For added protein support PWO(PWO)
10! Am I wasting my money on some of these?
__________________
Stats:
38 year old coach to my 8 year old son, 6 ft tall jungle gym to my 10 year old daughter, 184 lb husband to my wife of 15 years and a 11% BF fitness addict best friend to all 3 of them.
There is nothing really edgy in that list. Each supplement serves a purpose for you. I don't think you're overdoing it. ZMA doesn't work for a lot of people, but if it helps you, then ok. Glucosamine has been helpful to most everyone who takes it. The pwo stuff is good. The rest is basic health.
You list is not much different from my own. Besides pwo, I take:
Glucosamine/chondroitin
Greens+
Multi-vitamin
Calcium
Garlic
Fish oil
I'm not currently taking C, E, or glutamine, but I'm also not dealing with infections like you are. ZMA never did anything for me.
I don't think you're wasting money on any of those. Glutamine is the only one that I'd normally even question, but most people take it without knowing what it'll do for them. You've got a good reason, it seems.
I take fish oil, C, E, ZMA, and creatine.
Lisa, doesn't the garlic make you reek? Even when I bought oderless garlic, I got negative feedback. Does your husband take it too?
Lisa, doesn't the garlic make you reek? Even when I bought oderless garlic, I got negative feedback. Does your husband take it too?
LOL Not that I'm aware of. Nobody's complained and I can't smell it. :p
My husband doesn't take garlic.
I really, really didn't like the Kyolic brand that's supposed to be odorless. I could taste it and smell it. I take Kwai brand.
I started taking it because I was diagnosed with essential high blood pressure. I tried really hard to lower my bp with diet and supplements alone before I was willing to take a medication. The first thing I tried was garlic and my bp went down by 10 points. That was pretty amazing to me, so I keep a garlic supp in my diet all the time. It has other good qualities too. I think garlic supports the immunne system too, but I'm not sure if a pill will work for that purpose. It might have to be real garlic cloves.
Nothing looks wasted there. I dont use all of them, but most. It does seem like a lot at times, but when you work through them theres a valid reason for each one, and none of them are too pricey (I think, not sure about glutamine and BCAAs which I dont take).
Glucosamine was shown to be useless. I dunno about ZMA since I've seen conflicting opinions. The rest is fine though. Probably not necessary but not useless.
Glucosamine was shown to be useless. I dunno about ZMA since I've seen conflicting opinions. The rest is fine though. Probably not necessary but not useless.
Glucosamine? Really? I thought this was a fairly well respected supplement for improved joint health. I could do a commercial for glucosamine. I know it helped me. Surely it wasn't all placebo effect.
Careful of vitamin E as its fat soluable (ie you store this vitamin as with A,D,K)and most people don't need to supplement with this. If you start getting excessive headaches and fatigue then cut this for a bit.
Does anyone know if you need both glucosamine and fish oil? I thought fish oil had the same properties but i haven't investigated further.
I'm sure Rookie is shortening it, but it's usually glucosamine and chondroitin and some makers add a third component (I can't remember what).
I've just started taking a pill that contains glucosamine, condroitin, and MSM for some knee problems. I've only been on it a week, but so far it seems to have helped. I played basketball Monday night without the usual pain afterward. However, I have heard that it takes a couple of months to really notice the effects. I bought the pills at Vitamin World. $10 for 200 pills seemed like it was too good of a deal to pass up. Right now I am only taking 1 per day, but in about another week I will go up to 2 per day.
Glucosamine? Really? I thought this was a fairly well respected supplement for improved joint health. I could do a commercial for glucosamine. I know it helped me. Surely it wasn't all placebo effect.
For people with existing arthitis, or to a lesser degree any joint pain, it seems to have some effect (search pubmed to see about 1 million reviews on it) but the effects dont appear to be life shattering.
I don't think it has any PROVEN benefit for people w/o any existing condition which it seems like a lot of ppl are using it for now adays.
Shugga: I'm guessing that if you bought the Gl-Ch-MSM complex from VW for $10, you bought the bargain-bin "Vitamin Depot" label that came and went. Two things on this: the Glucosamine is Gl HCl, not Gl Sulfate. There is some debate as to whether or not this is significant. Some say that the failed trials on Gl-Ch are moot because the HCl form that is used is inferior to the Gl Sulfate (and vice versa). Don't sweat it too much, though, seeing as how there still is nothing to really indicate one way or the other. Number two: I have no idea about the quality of the "Vitamin Depot" brand. One thing I hate about the bargain bins at VW is that they sell off smaller companies' products (companies that they've bought out) but that don't necessarily have the same standards of quality. So while things with the Vitamin World label have largely been approved by Consumer Reports, the ones in the bargain bin have NOT.
A final note on that: you should be taking 2 tablets every day (of that particular brand), to reach the 1500mg/1200mg (Gl/Ch) that seems to be the effective amounts. I think that by taking only one, you are not going to see marked results.
There was a NYTimes article earlier this year on a major, long-term study that basically said Gl-Ch did not yield significant results (see below). Of course, like Lisa, there have been many customers that swear by it, and many clinical trials that have supported its use.
The MSM part of it is essentially a painkiller. I'd recommend reading up on it though (I'm not a link-master, like Lisa ) as I've read a few warnings against consistent use (apparently like most painkillers!)
As far as Gl-Ch vs. Fish Oil, I think there's no reason not to take both (barring the $$$ factor). Supposedly the Gl-Ch limits joint-material breakdown, while fish oil decreases joint inflammation. Fish oil, of course, also has a ton of other benefits.
"Supplements Fail to Stop Arthritis Pain, Study Says
Two widely used nutritional supplements for arthritis pain do not effectively soothe patients' aching arthritic knees, a large federal study has found.
The study of the two drugs, glucosamine and chondroitin sulfate, was published today in The New England Journal of Medicine. The study was meant to provide a definitive answer to a question that has baffled doctors and patients alike: do these supplements work?
Americans spent an estimated $734 million on glucosamine and chondroitin in 2004, according to The Nutrition Business Journal, making them among the most widely used dietary supplements in the nation. The two, which are produced by numerous companies, are often sold in combination as a treatment for arthritis.
In the 24-week study, 1,583 patients with osteoarthritis of the knee were randomly assigned to one of five groups. Some patients took glucosamine, some took chondroitin and some took both. Others, serving as comparison subjects, took a placebo or celecoxib, sold as Celebrex, a prescription drug that is approved for
osteoarthritis.
No effect was found for glucosamine, chondroitin or a combination of the two. But the study found that the patients who took celecoxib had a statistically significant improvement in their symptoms. Although the new study found no overall effect for the supplements, the authors and some other medical researchers said that an analysis of a subgroup of patients provided hope — although not definitive evidence —
that the supplements taken together might help some people with more severe pain.
"Patients who had more pain did seem to be helped by the combination," said Dr. Daniel O. Clegg, a researcher at the University of Utah School of Medicine who was the lead author of the study. But Dr. Clegg hastened to add that this observation would have to be confirmed in later studies.
Dr. Marc C. Hochberg, the head of the division of rheumatology and clinical immunology at the University of Maryland, said it was also possible that another type of glucosamine might be effective. The study used glucosamine hydrochloride because it was the only type that could be manufactured at the time in a sufficiently pure form. In Europe, where glucosamine and chondroitin are sold as drugs, glucosamine comes in the form of glucosamine sulfate, Dr. Hochberg said, and some industry-supported studies have indicated that this form helps.
But others said there was no reason to expect that glucosamine sulfate would be any different from glucosamine hydrochloride. They said they viewed the study's finding that the supplements had no benefit as persuasive.
"It's a null trial," said Dr. David Felson, a rheumatologist at Boston University. "It doesn't work any better than placebo."
Because the supplements are so popular, the results of the trial had been eagerly awaited. "We've been talking about the importance of this study for the last two or three years," said Dr. John Klippel, president and chief executive of the Arthritis Foundation.
"When people have been asking about glucosamine and chondroitin, we tell them this is the most important study ever done," Dr. Klippel said. "It has a very large number of patients and it is scientifically rigorous."
Previous studies had methodological flaws, and their results were contradictory. A handful of publicly financed trials showed no effect, Dr. Felson and others said. Other studies, financed by supplement makers, "were impressively positive," Dr. Felson said.
Dr. Clegg said the new study, financed by the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine and the National Institute of Arthritis and Musculoskeletal and Skin Diseases, arose after an expert panel in 1998 concluded that "there is a real and urgent public health need to test these agents in a rigorous way."
Glucosamine and chondroitin are substances found naturally in joints, leading some to suggest that they might be helpful for arthritis patients. Glucosamine is a modified sugar that is thought to play a role in the formation and repair of cartilage, and chondroitin is part of a large protein, proteoglycan, that provides elasticity to cartilage.
But, arthritis researchers say, they know of no biological reason why eating those compounds would help people with arthritis."
"Dr. Tim McAlindon, chief of rheumatology at Tufts-New England Medical Center in Boston, said that glucosamine traveled to the liver, which then broke it down. Almost no glucosamine that is eaten actually gets into the blood, where it can travel to the joints, Dr. McAlindon said, adding, "The amount that gets beyond the liver is minuscule."
Chondroitin, a large molecule, is digested, Dr. McAlindon said, but
it is broken into pieces in the intestines and none of it gets through intact to the joints.
Still, many arthritis patients swear by the supplements, which cost $30 to $50 a month, said Dr. Andrew Shao, vice president for scientific and regulatory affairs at the Council for Responsible Nutrition, a trade association for the dietary supplement industry.
Dr. Stephen E. Straus, director of the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine, a sponsor of the new study, said a national survey in 2002 found that about 5.2 million Americans had used one or both supplements in the preceding year. Dr. Straus noted that arthritis joint pain and stiffness were among the leading reasons for seeking alternative medical treatments.
Glucosamine and chondroitin are also marketed for pets — dogs and horses in particular — and veterinarians routinely prescribe them for arthritic animals.
Nancy MacLeod, 65, an administrative assistant who works in Manhattan, said that as far as she was concerned, the supplements worked.
"The difference is like walking on a spike and having padding in your knee," Ms. MacLeod said. "The medical profession says that can't happen, but I'm not in pain and I take no other drugs."
Despite the study's findings, she said, "I'm going to continue doing it."
The study found that in a subgroup, consisting of patients with moderate-to-severe knee pain, 79 percent of those who took the supplements together improved compared with 54 percent of those who took a placebo.
Such findings are viewed by most researchers as fodder for further studies but not as rigorous evidence in themselves, because they can be caused by random fluctuations in data and tend not to be confirmed in subsequent studies.
Some experts, however, said they thought the finding in the subgroup was likely to be real.
"Our take on this study is that it did find that the combination relieved pain in people who have moderate-to-severe pain," said Dr. Klippel of the Arthritis Foundation.
M. Elizabeth Halloran, a biostatistics professor at the Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center and the University of Washington in Seattle, who had no association with the study, also thought there was an effect. Dr. Halloran said she was swayed not only by the data but also by her sister's experience giving the supplements to her arthritic dog.
"If I had severe pain from osteoarthritis of the knee, based on this study, I would try glucosamine and chondroitin sulfate," Dr. Halloran said.
But Donald Berry, chairman of the department of biostatistics at M. D. Anderson Cancer Center, in Houston, who had no association with the study, said he was completely unconvinced by the subgroup finding.
"This is a spurious subset result if I've ever seen one," Dr. Berry said. "I wouldn't spend a nickel trying to confirm it."
*Correction: Feb. 24, 2006Because of an editing error, an article yesterday about a study of the effectiveness of glucosamine and chondroitin sulfate to ease arthritis pain referred to them incorrectly. They are dietary supplements, not drugs."
Ian, Thanks for posting the article. Have you read anywhere how much glucosamine and chondroitin the study subjects were taking? I'm just curious.
What do you make of this study? I'd be interested to hear what Alan, JB, and Mike Roussell think of it too.
It certainly contradicts my own personal experience. There is arthritis in all the women in my family. My mother suffered and now both of my sisters (one younger and one older) both have joint pain. I began experiencing the first symptoms in my early 30's but now, at 46, do not have joint pain.
I am not taking Glucosamine and chondroitin. It is only glucosamne. Within two weeks of beginning, the pain in my wrists had all but gone away. I am now stopping for a few weeks to gauge the effect.
__________________
Stats:
38 year old coach to my 8 year old son, 6 ft tall jungle gym to my 10 year old daughter, 184 lb husband to my wife of 15 years and a 11% BF fitness addict best friend to all 3 of them.
I take the vitamin E because of what I'd read in Nutrient Timing. Positive workout recovery effects when E and C were taken with workout nutrition.
Bingo...
I could see going without the multi, for many people it is kind of like wearing a belt with suspenders. I consider this since you seem to be somewhat nutrition conscious and are taking a greens supplement.
I guess I also don't really have an opinion on the glucosamine et complexes. I believe some people benefit from these but I am not sure I would make the personal recommendation for it as I would EPA/DHA, Creatine, Greens, BCAAs, etc.
I am not taking Glucosamine and chondroitin. It is only glucosamne. Within two weeks of beginning, the pain in my wrists had all but gone away. I am now stopping for a few weeks to gauge the effect.
I'd be very interested to hear what happens.
Curious: What's the brand and what type of Glucosamine? HCl or Sulfate? Are you taking the typical 1500mg?
Curious: What's the brand and what type of Glucosamine? HCl or Sulfate? Are you taking the typical 1500mg?
1500 mg of HCL from CVs, store brand.
__________________
Stats:
38 year old coach to my 8 year old son, 6 ft tall jungle gym to my 10 year old daughter, 184 lb husband to my wife of 15 years and a 11% BF fitness addict best friend to all 3 of them.
Have you read anywhere how much glucosamine and chondroitin the study subjects were taking? I'm just curious.
Quote:
We randomly assigned 1583 patients with symptomatic knee osteoarthritis to receive 1500 mg of glucosamine daily, 1200 mg of chondroitin sulfate daily, both glucosamine and chondroitin sulfate, 200 mg of celecoxib daily, or placebo for 24 weeks.
We randomly assigned 1583 patients with symptomatic knee osteoarthritis to receive 1500 mg of glucosamine daily, 1200 mg of chondroitin sulfate daily, both glucosamine and chondroitin sulfate, 200 mg of celecoxib daily, or placebo for 24 weeks.
Am I overdoing it?
) as I've read a few warnings against consistent use (apparently like most painkillers!) 
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