Diet, Nutrition and SupplementationPost here for supplement reviews or nutritional advice. If you're trying to get "ripped abz" THIS is where you should be.
I was reading Shuggart's HCl diaries and Staley's A Question of Strength where he talks about the prevalence of low stomach acids leading to poor absorbtion.
I'm considering getting some Betaine HCl w/ pepsin, but I'm having a hell of a time finding 200mg caps. Everything is 600+.
The only place I found it in the right proportions was Animal Pak.
In my experience they are essential and aid in bring clients a step up from their current state. The ability to assimilate and process nutrients is a key factor in growth.
The Supertraining forum had a long discussion of this topic that you guys might want to read through. I have great respect for Dr. Ralph Giarnella, so even if you don't read all of it, please read his posts.
The Supertraining forum had a long discussion of this topic that you guys might want to read through. I have great respect for Dr. Ralph Giarnella, so even if you don't read all of it, please read his posts.
LD, Can you not see the thread at all? I didn't think you had to be a member of the forum to read it, but only to be able to post. I think you have to sign in with your yahoo account information, but not necessarily be a member of Supertraining. Am I wrong about that?
If you can't access it at all, I'll copy some of Dr. Giarnella's comments into this thread. They are worth reading.
You have to sign in, then post a request about who you are and why you want to join. Then, it says it will be reviewed by the moderator, who will decide to let you in or not. It doesn't use those words, but that's the gist.
I find it unlikely that I'll be let in, since I thought it was just a little blurb about yourself. So I made it "funny." Only after I hit submit, did it tell me that it was going to be reviewed...
I think I said "Lisa sent me. I do what I'm told."
I think I said "Lisa sent me. I do what I'm told."
You're a good man, but I bet they won't let you in, hahahahaha. :p
I really thought you could view it without joining. I'll copy and paste some of the interesting points, but not all of it unless you guys start asking for it because it's very, very long.
Here's Dr. Giarnella's first rebuttal post in response to someone praising Poloquin's T-Nation article:
Quote:
Re: [Supertraining] Stomach Acid - Rebuttal
***I have a partial rebuttal to Poliquin’s article quoted
in a previous post.
<<
Poloquin's occasional A Question of Strength. I've included a section of it
herewith:
HCl: You Are What You Assimilate!
Q: Besides zinc and magnesium, what other deficiencies do those of us seeking
muscle and performance need to worry about?
A: The most common one, which actually causes zinc and
magnesium deficiency, is hydrochloric acid (HCl) deficiency.
Back when I was an undergrad many moons ago, they used to tell us that you lose
about 1% stomach acid per year after the age
of 40. Well, that's not true anymore because our high stress levels these days
decrease HCl.
We did a study at our Chicago facility where we gave
160 clients an HCl test. Only two people passed it with a medium
score; 158 had a horrendous score.>>
***
What kind of test did he perform?
Hydrochloric acid is only present in the stomach when
stimulated by the ingestion of meals (gastric phase)
or in anticipation of eating (cephalic phase of
stimulation).
Did they put a nasogastric tube into the clients
stomach, stimulate them in such a way that the stomach
would secrete acid and then suction the contents of
the stomach to measure the amount of acidty present?
When I was a Gastrenterology Fellow in training, we
would measure gastric acid secretion by doing such a
test. We used intravenous calcium infusion to
stimulate the stomach to produce acid. We would then
suction the entire contents of the stomach by way of a
nasogastric tube and measure both the amount of fluid
produced as well as the acidity.
The last time I did that test was in 1976 one year
before Tegamet was introduced. RG
Poliquin wrote:
<
will pass into the intestine and putrefy instead of
being digested.>>
***
This statement is blatantly false.. The vast
majority of protein digestion takes place in the small
intestine by way of enzymes secreted by the pancreas
and these enzymes require an alkaline solution to
function.
If the statement made by Poliquin were true the best
diet pill in the world would be Nexium because it
totally shuts down the stomach's ability to produce
acid.
Poliquin wrote:
<
adequate\ digestive enzymes from the
pancreas.>>
***
Another false statement. Carbohydrates are primarily
digested by enzymes contained in the brush border of
the intestines. These enzymes not only do not need
HCL but they work best in an alkaline solution.
Poliquin wrote:
<
influence on the
pancreas to secrete lipase and the gall bladder to
secrete bile.>>
***
Another false statement. Neither lipase nor bile are
stimulated by the presence of acid. The only
substance produced by the pancreas that is stimulated
by acid is Bicarbonate.
Lipase and bile are stimulated by the presence of fat
in the duodenum by way of a cholecystikinin.
If we were to believe Poliquin’s statement that
protein, carbs and fat cannot be digested without acid
then the ideal weight loss pill should be Nexium.
Nexium shuts down the stomachs ability to produce
acid, therefore taking Nexium you should be able eat
all the food that you want without fear of gaining
weight, after all it will all end up in your colon and
eventually down the toilet.RG
Poliquin wrote:
<<<
absorption of our basic energy sources.
Over the last four years, I've been amazed how a
correction in HCl
deficiency has led to not only dramatic improvements
in physique and strength, but also improvements in a
variety of health parameters. Interestingly enough, in
strength-trained individuals those improvements are
often associated with gains of 15 to 18 pounds of lean
body mass within two months!
Why? They are now absorbing proteins and minerals.>>>
***
I would be interested in testing how much HCL acid is
really in the capsules Poliquin is giving his
athletes. HCL is one of the most caustic acids. Only
Sulfuric (battery) acid and Flouric acid are more
caustic. Just a small amount of undiluted HCL in the
the esophogus can cause significant ulceration. RG.
Poliquin wrote:
<
belching or gas within one hour of a meal
bloating shortly after eating
bad breath
loss of taste for meat
nausea after taking supplements
brittle fingernails
undigested food in stool
foul-smelling stools
stomach pain
desire to skip meals
estrogen buildup
acne rosacea
depression>>
***
All false and unfounded statements.
Poliquin wrote:
<
be in the range of 40 to 50%. Some
gastroenterologists are now advancing that it is
today's most under-diagnosed ailment.>>
***
I would like to know who these gastroenterologists
are. I have attended national Gastrointestinal
conventions, I read GI journals every day and I have
never heard anyone state that HCL deficiency is a
major problem.
Amongst the most sought after and prescribed
medications in the world are the Proton Pump
inhibitors and H2 blockers better known as Nexium etc
and Tegament and Zanctac.
If HCL deficiency were a problem there would be no
keed for any of these medications
RG
Poliquin wrote:
<>
***
I would like to know what these tests are RG:
Poliquin wrote:
<
suggest you talk to a physician qualified in
nutritional medicine before you try it). It requires a
bottle of Betaine HCl, at 200 mg potency per
capsule>>
***
“”BetaineHCL is a methyl group donor that functions in
the normal metabolic cycle of methionine and reduces
homocystinuria in patients with inborn errors of
methionine metabolism.
Uses
•Homocystinuria
BetaineHCL is used in the management of
homocystinuria, including forms of the disorder caused
by cystathionine ?-synthase (CBS) deficiency,
5,10-methylenetetrahydrofolate reductase (MTHFR)
deficiency, or cobalamin cofactor metabolism (cbl)
defect, and has been designated an orphan drug by the
US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) for the
management of this condition. Although betaine can
correct biochemical abnormalities (e.g., reduce
elevated plasma homocysteine concentrations) in these
patients, the drug does not correct the underlying
basic genetic disorder.
SIDE EFFECTS:
Nausea, stomach upset, or diarrhea may occur
Cost:
Approx. Price: $185.0 per 180Grams (source Medscape
Drug search)””RG
I will end this post at this point since I have run
out time and energy to continue rebutting the
numerous scientific misstatements contained in this
document.
I will try to answer the rest of the false statements
in a later post.
I have included some references which I have cited in
my previous post on the physiology of the GI tract.
Ralph Giarnella MD
Southington, CT
1) Chang,Sitrin,Black: "Gastrointestinal,
Hepatobiliary, and Nutritional Physiology" Chap 3 pg
53 Lipincott Raven
(2) Gamble J.L. Chemical anatomy, physiology and
pathology of extracellular fluid, ed 6 Cambridge Mass
1954 Harvard University Press.
(3) Williams, S.R 5 th ed Nutrition and Diet Therapy,
Times Mirror Mosby, College Publishing
Binder HJ, Sandle GI. Electrolyte transport in the
mammalian colon. In: Johns LR, ed. Physiolgy of te
Gastrointestinal Trat. 3rd ed New York Raven Press
1994; 2133-2172
Chang EB, Rao MC. Intestina water and electrolyte
transport: mechanism of physiological and adaptive
responses. In: Johns LR, ed. Physiolgy of te
Gastrointestinal Trat. 3rd ed New York Raven Press
1994; 2027-2082
Cooke HJ. Reddix RA. Neural regulation of intestinal
electrolyte tranport. In: Johns LR, ed. Physiolgy of
te Gastrointestinal Trat. 3rd ed New York Raven Press
1994; 2083-2132
Re: [Supertraining] Stomach Acid - Rebuttal part II
Rebuttal part II
<
Step 1: Have a high-protein solid meal (no shakes).
Let's say for
illustration purposes a 12-ounce steak and vegetables.
Step 2: Eat half the protein, roughly 6 ounces of the
steak.
Step 3: Swallow a 200mg capsule of HCl.
Step 4: Eat the other half of the steak and the
vegetables.
Step 5: Wait 15 minutes.
Step 6: If your stomach acid is normal, you'll feel
like you just drank
a hot cup of tea or feel a burn. If you feel nothing,
you need HCl as a
supplement.
So what do you do next? At every meal repeat steps 1
to 6, upping the dose one capsule per meal until you
feel the burning sensation. So if it takes five meals
to get a burning sensation, you need on average four
capsules per meal. If you get to seven capsules and
you have no burning, stop the test — you're
achloridic, meaning you have almost no stomach acid!
At our Phoenix center alone we've been doing over 250
tests a year for the last four years, and in that
time I've never seen one person not need at least one
capsule; the average person tested could feel it after
five capsules. You're getting better when you start
feeling a burn at your initial determined dosage. For
example, if you found that five capsules was your
initial need, you may find that three days later it
starts to burn, so then you'd cut back to four
capsules with a typical high-protein solid meal, and
so on. >>
**********************
If the capsules noted in the above citation in fact
do contain Hydrochloric acid then this is a very
dangerous and possibly life threatening practice.
I have had patients who developed severe esophageal
ulcerations caused by pills which remained in the
esophagus too long. Just two weeks ago one of my
patients had to be hospitalized and transfused several
units of blood because he often would take his
medications without drinking fluids. The pills in
question did not contain Hydrochloric acid.
On another note, normal acidity of the stomach does
not cause a burning sensation. I would be very
concerned if anything you eat or drink causes a
burning sensation. If there is in fact some HCL in
those pills the patients may be developing gastritis
(small erosions or ulcerations of the gastric mucosa).
I would love to perform and Esophogastro Duodenoscopy
on these clients after they have ingested 5-6 HCL
pills and felt a burn. Pass the Maalox please. RG
************************
<
even when they start at seven capsules, but some
individuals take as much as 18 months. I have two
clients who need two caps a day permanently. Why?
Because neither one will ever escape their stress
levels (one of them is a real estate mogul and the
other is a highly accomplished author). Make sure that
your HCl product also contains the probiotic pepsin
and the digestive enzymes papain and pancreatin, as
they have a synergistic
effect with HCl therapy.>>
****************************** **
How would taking HCL pills restore the stomach ability
to produce acid in 8 weeks or even 18 months?
Futhermore there is no evidence that stress causes
achlorhydria. On the contrary under certain
circumstances, which I will not elaborate here,
extreme stress can cause stress ulcerations. Patients
in the Intensive Care Units are often given acid
suppressant drugs to prevent these stress ulcers.
Unless you suffer from chronic pancreatitis or small
bowel disease such as Chron’s disease there is not
need for digestive enzymes. Just another useless
supplement. RG
*************************
<
few other
suggestions to normalize your stomach acid levels.
First, avoid carbonated drinks.
Second, avoid all-you-can-eat buffets, as they're
America's leading
source of food-borne pathogens. Finally, there are
numerous herbs that can
contribute to raising HCl, such as gentian,
peppermint, and ginger, but
be aware that very few controlled studies exist on
this topic.
I believe this is so important that my clients aren't
given a
supplement program until they get an HCl test.
Remember, not only are you what
you eat, you are what you assimilate!>>>
******************************
“Gastric acid and Pepsin are not critical to the
digestion or
absorption of foods.” (1) (Chang,Sitrin,Black:
"Gastrointestinal,
Hepatobiliary, and Nutritional Physiology" Chap 3
pg132
*******************
<
a vegetarian for
most of his adult life. His energy has been in a
terrible fix for some
months now, along with waking nightly with back and
hip pain - so bad he was hooked on pain killers for a
short spell. >>
****************
This poor old man probably suffers from severe
osteoporosis or severe degenerative joint disease
neither of which is associated with the presence or
absence of acid in the stomach.RG
*******************
Vegetarian diets are notorious for leading to anemia
due to loss of production of stomach acid resulting in
inabililty to metabolize folic acid to B-12 and
mineral absorption. This man has found relief with
B-12 injections resutling in
loss of pain and uniterrupted night sleep.>>
******************************
This last one is another false statement based on his
obvious lack of knolwedge of nutrition and physiology
of the GI tract.
The stomach produces a substance called Intrinsic
factor. Intrinsic factor is not related to acid
production. Intrinsic factor is needed for the proper
absorption of B12
However there is a condition often seen in the elderly
called atrophic gastritis which causes a decrease in
all the substances produced by the stomach including
Intrinsic factor.
Just as we lose our hair and our skin wrinkles as we
age so to the cells of the intestine gradually
atrophy. It is called the aging factor. Like it or
not there is a programmed slow cell death in all
cells. No one lives forever.
Back to the atrophic gastritis. In this condition
there is a concomitant decrease in production of all
substances usually produced by these cells. Intrinsic
factor, as I stated previously is not dependent on
acid for its function, but it is necessary to
facilitate the absorption of B12 in the distal part of
the intestine called the ileum.
I have taken the liberty to cite a few reviews below.
*******
“The most common cause of vitamin B12 deficiency,
pernicious anemia, is caused by autoantibodies
produced against intrinsic factor, a protein produced
in the stomach necessary for absorption of vitamin B12
in the small intestine"
Concerning B12 supplementation:
"Ahman el al[4] went a step further with this issue,
suggesting that excessive replacement of vitamin B12
may in some cases even accelerate underlying
hematologic malignancies. This is based on the
observation that patients with vitamin B12
deficiencies have an increased incidence of
hematologic malignancies. They demonstrated in vitro
that adding vitamin B12 could stimulate blast colony
formation."
Pernicious Anemia: Presentations Mimicking Acute
Leukemia
Cristi Aitelli, BS; Lori Wasson, DO; Ray Page, DO, PHD
South Med J 97(3):295-297, 2004. Đ 2004 Lippincott
Williams & Wilkins
********
Below is another excerpt from a good review on
nutritional disorders.
You will note that the authors do not list
achlorhydria (lack of Hydrochloric acid) as a cause of
nutritional disorders even though this condition may
be found in the<80 yo elderly RG.
********************
Nutritional Disorders in the Elderly
Ian McPhee Chapman, MBBS, PhD
Department of Medicine, University of Adelaide, Level
6, Eleanor Harrald Building, Royal Adelaide Hospital,
North Terrace, 5000 Adelaide, Australia
THE PHYSIOLOGIC ANOREXIA OF AGING
The causes of the physiologic anorexia of aging are
poorly understood. A list of factors that may
contribute is given in Box 1. There is a strong
correlation between impaired sense of smell and
reduced interest in and intake of food. The senses of
taste and smell deteriorate with age; in one study
more than 60% of subjects aged 65 to 80 years, and
more than 80% of subjects aged 80 years or older
exhibited major reductions in their sense of smell,
compared with less than 10% of those who were younger
than 50 years [24]. Age-associated increases in the
production or effect of satiating cytokines probably
also contribute [25]. Cytokines are secreted in
response to significant stress, often due to
malignancy or infection, and act to decrease food
intake and reduce body weight. Blockade of these
cytokines (eg, tumor necrosis factor [TNF] in mice
with TNF-producing sarcomas) significantly attenuates
weight loss in high-stress conditions that are
associated with cachexia. Circulating concentrations
of the cytokines interleukin (IL)-1, IL-6, TNF-?, and
C-reactive protein are increased in cachectic patients
who have cancer or HIV/AIDS. Older people have
increased circulating and monocyte concentrations of
cytokines, and these levels are related inversely to
skeletal muscle protein synthesis and positively to
the rate of muscle tissue loss [26], [27], [28]. In
The Framingham Heart Study, higher IL-6 and TNF-?
production was associated with reduced muscle strength
and increased mortality [28], [29].
VITAMIN B12 (COBALAMIN) DEFICIENCY
Vitamin B12, together with vitamin B6 and folate, is
integral to homocysteine and methylmalonate
metabolism. Vitamin B12 deficiency is associated with
increases in circulating homocysteine and
methylmalonic acid concentrations, and supplementation
with vitamin B12 or folate reduces homocysteine
concentrations [84]. Vitamin B12 deficiency is more
common in older people than in young adults. In the
Framingham study, for example, 11.3% of elderly
subjects had a serum vitamin B12 concentration of less
than 258 pmol/L, together with elevated plasma
homocysteine and methylmalonic acid levels, compared
with 5.3% of younger adults [85]. In elderly people
who are living in institutions the prevalence of
deficiency may be as high as 30% to 40% [86]. Because
the signs and symptoms of vitamin B12 deficiency often
are subtle, there should be a low threshold for
testing older people, in particular those who are
malnourished, those who have a neurologic or
neuropsychiatric presentation that is consistent with
vitamin B12 deficiency, and those who are in
institutions, including psychiatric hospitals [86].
CLINICAL EFFECTS OF B12 DEFICIENCY IN OLDER PEOPLE
The most common clinical manifestations of vitamin B12
deficiency in older people are macrocytic anemia,
subacute combined degeneration of the spinal cord,
neuropathies, ataxia, glossitis, and possibly dementia
[87], although vitamin B12 supplementation does not
produce cognitive improvement consistently [86], [87].
There is evidence that homocysteine damages blood
vessel walls, and there is a significant association
between increased plasma homocysteine levels and an
increased risk for cardiovascular disease [88], [89].
Results of meta-analyses are consistent with this
connection being causal [89], but this has not been
supported by intervention studies, so far confined to
secondary prevention studies [84], [90]. Numerous
studies showed an association between reduced vitamin
B12 levels, increased homocysteine levels, or both and
impaired cognition, depression, and other
neuropsychiatric disorders [87], [91], and, more
recently, reduced bone density and an increased rate
of hip fractures [92]. Studies of supplementation with
vitamin B12 and folate, however, have produced
contradictory results, with improvements in some but
not in others; there is some suggestion that treatment
only may be successful if given early [93]. Therefore,
the use of vitamin B12, folate, and other supplements
for such indications is unproven.
The increased prevalence of deficiency in the elderly
is mainly due to an increased rate of two conditions
that increase B12 requirements: food-cobalamin
malabsorption and pernicious anemia, which account for
approximately 60% to 70% and 15% to 20% of cases,
respectively [86]. Malabsorption and other causes are
more rare, as is true dietary insufficiency (intake
<2.4 ?g/d) [93], except in strict vegans.
Nevertheless, vitamin B12 and folate deficiency
coexist frequently in older people [93].
Food-cobalamin malabsorption syndrome is characterized
by the inability to release vitamin B12 from
intestinal transport proteins or food, despite normal
absorption of unbound vitamin B12, such as crystalline
vitamin B12 in supplements. Diagnosis requires a low
serum vitamin B12 concentration, negative Schilling
test, and adequate dietary intake (>2 ?g/d) [86]. The
most common predisposing factor is gastric atrophy,
which is present in more than 40% of people who are
older than 80 years. Numerous factors predispose to
the development of gastric atrophy, including
Helicobacter pylori infection, chronic alcoholism,
bacterial overgrowth, long-term ingestion of metformin
and antacids, and gastric bypass surgery for obesity
[86].
**************************
There is a saying that always rings true: “A little
bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing” Captain Queeg
The Caine Mutiny (1954).
I was a little puzzled by that saying when I first
heard it as a youngster but after reflection I
realized the truthfulness of the saying.
Some people who learn a little about a subject think
they know all there is to know and make bad judgments
based on their limited knowledge.
I prefer the following: “The more I learn, the more I
realize how little I really know” author unknown.
I know that's a lot of information, but I hope that those of you considering using this product will take the time to read it.
There was more discussion, some questions that were answered, etc., but I think that's enough to copy and paste here. One post says that someone posted Dr. Giarnella's comments at T-Nation and that Charles Poloquin chose to not respond.
Anyone taking these? I read something a while ago on t-mag about them. I found some yesterday and got them.
This thread has shifted focus. HCL caps are not to be confused with digestive enzymes, which are found in yogurt and other forms. They really have nothing to do with acid in the stomach...
Micheal Roussell had some good things to say about digestive enzymes, a while back. I think it was in a t-nation article, but I can't quite remember.
This thread has shifted focus. HCL caps are not to be confused with digestive enzymes, which are found in yogurt and other forms. They really have nothing to do with acid in the stomach...
Micheal Roussell had some good things to say about digestive enzymes, a while back. I think it was in a t-nation article, but I can't quite remember.
LD, I agree that bromelain and other digestive enzymes have benefit, but the first and second posts in this thread referred specifically to T-Nation and the Question of Strength article that discussed HCl. I waited for a while thinking that the difference would be pointed out, but it just went in the direction of HCl so I felt like I had to let people in on Dr. Giarnella's expertise.
Good stuff, Lisa. Like I posted in another thread, I experimented with Betaine HCl after reading Poloquin's article and had heartburn for several days.
I went back to my normal "Super-Enzyme" pill (occasionally), which contains a bunch of stuff, including 200mg of Betaine HCl. I'm pretty darn convinced it helps with big meals and such. Of course, this could be the other ingredients too.
I had no intention of continuing with the heavier doses of Betaine HCl after using it... now there's no doubt that I won't be.
I love the supertraining groups (and Lyles forum). Totally cuts through the pseudo science or misinterpretations that t-mag usually spews.
__________________
"The strongest steel goes through the hottest fires."-Anonymous
"When you begin to believe nothing is heavy, all weights become light." -Rossbow
"Just remember, somewhere there is a little Chinese girl warming up with your max."-Jim Convroy
"It's a round hole, dammit. Everyone fits."--Anonymous Mod at Strengthmill
Then, what is the recommendation? If HCl won't help, what will? I'm not eating yogurt these days and I could never eat FF plain yogurt straight as is, so what can I utilize?
i don't understand why people think they really NEED this stuff in your diet? why? seriously?
call me old fashioned, but i don't like taking excess stuff that i don't need. I don't take pain killers, very rarely cold medicine, or even asprin.
You can do just fine with a diet full of omega 3s, good proteins, veggies and healthy carbs. A good diet and exercise program will go a long way. People need to stop looking for shortcuts, and just do the work needed to reach their goals.
i don't understand why people think they really NEED this stuff in your diet? why? seriously?
call me old fashioned, but i don't like taking excess stuff that i don't need. I don't take pain killers, very rarely cold medicine, or even asprin.
You can do just fine with a diet full of omega 3s, good proteins, veggies and healthy carbs. A good diet and exercise program will go a long way. People need to stop looking for shortcuts, and just do the work needed to reach their goals.
For me, it's the fact that I've been eating like you described for a while, and I still have GI problems on occassion. Not as bad as I used to, before I learned how to eat well, but 2-3 meals a week won't sit right. Is it food allergies? Combinations? Timing? I don't know for sure, but I like to experiment to fix problems. Nutrition is one of my "hobbies", so I mess around sometimes, like the V-Diet (woops!) the Betain HCl (whoops again!) and Tribulus (boing! ). Nothing really edgy (like HGH or any type of steroid) but seeing as how I have a decent list of health problems (asthma, hypoglycemia,family history of back problems, depression and IBS) I try to "fix myself up" as best I can... and straight-forward food doesn't do the trick alone. For the most part, I've done pretty well!
i don't understand why people think they really NEED this stuff in your diet? why? seriously?
call me old fashioned, but i don't like taking excess stuff that i don't need. I don't take pain killers, very rarely cold medicine, or even asprin.
You can do just fine with a diet full of omega 3s, good proteins, veggies and healthy carbs. A good diet and exercise program will go a long way. People need to stop looking for shortcuts, and just do the work needed to reach their goals.
I don't NEED this in my diet, and I am not looking for shortcuts. If I was looking for shortcuts I would be taking a prohormone or steroids.
I am also like you in regards to pain killers etc.
I have a good diet and exercise plan, I eat good protiens, veggies, fish and fish oil, but I have cut carbs. I also take Gluc/MSM for my back, a mulit vitamin, and some b12/zinc and mag.
I don't NEED this in my diet, and I am not looking for shortcuts. If I was looking for shortcuts I would be taking a prohormone or steroids.
I am also like you in regards to pain killers etc.
I have a good diet and exercise plan, I eat good protiens, veggies, fish and fish oil, but I have cut carbs. I also take Gluc/MSM for my back, a mulit vitamin, and some b12/zinc and mag.
the post wasn't really directed towards you. it was more of a generality.
it just doesn't make sense for someone to be taking stuff like this to me.
and for what it's worth, i have stomach conditions as well. I have what a gastro called "weak stomach", although, i think it's something way different than that. Basically, a few years ago, i could eat anything, and then my stomach would tighten up, become very painful, and i would throw up. It didn't really matter what i would eat... it happened with stuff like salad. They thought it was an ulcer, but it wasn't, so they just said it was a weak stomach. I take 150mg of zantac daily now, and the stomach problem doesn't occur anymore. This, along with making 90% of my food choice healthy seemed to do the trick....
Digestive Enzymes
). Nothing really edgy (like HGH or any type of steroid) but seeing as how I have a decent list of health problems (asthma, hypoglycemia,family history of back problems, depression and IBS) I try to "fix myself up" as best I can... and straight-forward food doesn't do the trick alone. For the most part, I've done pretty well!
Linear Mode
