My ketosis update

[Chris Correia]

Ok, an update:

I've not monitored food each day, but based on a sample day (which is pretty typical), I'm taking in something like this:

2,044 calories

Protein 193 g 38%
Fat 121 g 54%
Carbs 57 g 8%

In 13 days, I've lost what appears to be (it's tough to tell with what I think are water/hydration fluctuations) about 4 pounds.

I've generally felt fine. I've had days where I've felt pretty energetic all day, those when I've felt slightly sluggish all day, and some with up and down periods. I'd say it's been about one-third each.

The hardest days are when I get active in martial arts classes in the evenings. It seems my energy drops noticeably faster than usual. Weight workouts in the AM are OK; I've been using the HGM Iron Manual phase 1, beginner program: 3 tri-sets of 3 exercises each, 10-12 reps.

So, one thing I've been wondering about is the value of refeeds, or some carbs leading up to martial arts classes, or after exercise (lifting, classes)? Particularly with a big 2 or 2 1/2 hour Kumdo training across state this Saturday, I've been thinking I'll carb-up on Thursday, starting post workout, and through Friday and Saturday. But, I don't want to mess getting or staying in the ketosis groove, including needing to get reacclimated. I'm not sure of the reason and science of staying in ketosis (assuming I am) versus adding in the carb/refeed days, or targeting carbs to workout times.

Any suggestions?

[gobbla]

two hours beforehand eat some oatmeal. no more than 10min before drink 200c worth of carbs. play it by ear after that (you'll probibly be ok for the most part). otherwise carry on as normal

[BFG]

any particular reasons you are doing ketosis like this Chris? sorry may have missed out on it

[BFG]

ah just found the other thread. Well no offence meant but I dont see a major fat loss over a calorie restricted diet here to be honest.

Several anecdoctal reports and also studies also indicate that those on a high protein diet tend to eat less anyway and therefore overall calories are lower, some of this is attributed to monotany and some to satiety (if they are the right words! doh!).

As you know Im not a great fan of high protein diets anyway, I no its an entirely different kettle of fish but there was a recent article (not so much a study as it wasnt totaly controlled) whereby a reporter followed Atkins for 10 weeks and they monitored his blood at start and finish his bad cholesterol was throuh the roof and he was exhibiting all the warning signs of type 2 diabetes.

having been through a ketogenic diet before I would say I wont ever go there again it was a horrible feeling. Energy levels were not so much of a problem after the first few weeks during exercise but afterwards boy did I feel groggy! and thats without mentioning the vile breath that doesnt go away.

Flipside was tho when introducing carbs back in at a higher proprotion gains seemed to be rapid much in line with glycogen replenishment that I experienced after finishing my last campaign.

[Adam Campbell]

I no its an entirely different kettle of fish but there was a recent article (not so much a study as it wasnt totaly controlled) whereby a reporter followed Atkins for 10 weeks and they monitored his blood at start and finish his bad cholesterol was throuh the roof and he was exhibiting all the warning signs of type 2 diabetes.

well, we could look at all the REAL studies that don't show that, and in fact, find that it's a CURE for diabetes. Are you sure the reporter exhibited ALL warning signs of type 2 diabetes? And did the reporter even know what he was talking about? I find it hard to believe that his blood glucose was high, and on top of that, the other warning signs--high triglycerides, low HDL, high blood pressure---are all IMPROVED by a low-carb diet. I don't care to argue about it b/c you clearly have your mind made up, but all you have to do is look at the actual research.

Interesting stuff about LDL: In the absence of weight loss, LDL rises on a low-carb diet. But particle size INCREASES. This is good because it's the small, dense particles that are atherogenic. That's right, there are two types of LDL--Pattern A and Pattern B. Also, typically HDL rises more than LDL on a low-carb diet which means it reduces heart disease risk in that way, too. Read the research by Ron Krauss that also shows that LDL may not be nearly as important as once thought. Or this study by Indiana researchers which shows that HDL is much more important than LDL in predicting future coronary events: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...=pubmed_docsum

Several anecdoctal reports and studies also indicate that those on a high protein diet tend to eat less anyway and therefore overall calories are lower, some of this is attributed to monotany and some to satiety (if they are the right words! doh!).

So, in other words, a low-carb diet would be EASIER to follow than a low-fat diet, no? The monotony thing is an argument that's just made up by RDs, but it's true that people do spontaneously reduce their intake of calories on a low-carb diet. Hard to say that's an argument against it, though--greater satiety is a good thing.

People respond differently to the diet, but I know in Volek's studies they have been getting great feedback. I think the hard thing about low-carb dieting isn't that it's dissatisfying, it's that there are so many tempting foods available to knock you off of it. Hey, we all like sugar--but that doesn't mean we should be eating it--even in moderation. See where I'm going? You can get away with eating it in moderation if that helps you adhere to a basic calorie-restriction plan, but that doesn't mean it's optimal.

[BFG]

As with everything Adam just because I dont favour it it doesnt mean I dont a) believe it works or b) consider it another viable tool in the weightloss arsenal.

I personaly dont prescribe to it and have had just as good a retrun from not going on a ketogenic diet. I personaly do not feel that a protein rich diet is a healthy balanced diet and certainly not one that is easily maintainable as you pointed out. It takes discipline with any diet but total deprivation in a diet of a macro nutrient and wholesale change of eating habits often leads to failure to adhere.

The point about satiety was more to the fact that how much of the weightloss is attributable to the process and how much is attributable to the simple fact that they are consuming less calories than they normaly would. I'm not pro high carbs Im pro low calorie if I must be pigeon holed.

The reporter didnt monitor the blood levels an independant lab did, I shall dig out the link off of Guardain Unlimited tomorrow but as I point out it was not a scientific study, as in it was not in a controlled environment.

But it sure made interesting reading.

[BFG]

I apologise the article states:

Basically for Alok as an individual, the Atkins diet appeared to induce a metabolic state that was more like diabetes than simple starvation (which is the other cause of ketosis). This is not a good thing, and indeed the whole Atkins diet picture looks like a recipe for insulin resistance and consequent type 2 diabetes - exactly the opposite of what we should be aiming for in terms of weight loss

the full write up is on the attached page and is worth reading:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/atkin...156075,00.html

[Adam Campbell]

Hey, don't get me wrong: No doubt you have had great results with your approach. And it certainly has and will work very well for many people.

I'd take issue with the idea that a low-carb diet isn't healthy as I haven't seen any solid evidence that suggests the contrary. Only the stuff that I read in my nutrition textbook in grad school, most of which has been disproven. I'd also say that a low-carb diet that works best is high in fat, and not overly high in protein (higher than an average diet though)--which may be one reason why you had a bad experience. High-protein, low-carb, low-fat diets are miserable, if you ask me.

I do think you are right that it's not easily maintained--as no diet is--but my main point is that it's really all the choices that surround us that make it difficult. That is, it's not that it's hard to stay on a low-carb diet BECAUSE it's low-carb, it's that we all like the way things like donuts taste--so it's a hard temptation to avoid. So a moderate approach can work well here because you can have a donut and still stay within your calorie restrictions, but you can't stay within your carb restrictions. Either way, of course, you have to restrict yourself from wolfing down lots of these types of foods, though.

I think most people who eat really clean are not unlike low-carb dieters in that they focus their meals on foods like meat (and other high-quality protein) and vegetables. The main difference is that they consume foods like whole grains while the low-carb dieter will eat a lot more fat.

[Adam Campbell]

Basically for Alok as an individual, the Atkins diet appeared to induce a metabolic state that was more like diabetes than simple starvation (which is the other cause of ketosis). This is not a good thing, and indeed the whole Atkins diet picture looks like a recipe for insulin resistance and consequent type 2 diabetes - exactly the opposite of what we should be aiming for in terms of weight loss

Yes, this is idiotic. As the other thread discussed, he's confusing ketosis with metabolic ketoacidosis.

[BFG]

yep agree when cutting last year for Mens Health in the UK the diet was aiming for max dietary fat of 20%, that was easily achievable. Prior to that I was following a Protein high, low fat, low carb diet

I think its very much a transatlantic thing tho as I have said before, our diet and eating patterns have always been higher on carbs one of our main staple foods being the potato (altho as of late it does seem to be pasta!!!!) Altho these patterns were also influenced by rationing duing the war.

I think if your body has been continualy provided with carbs from conception to present that to deprive carbs, or for that matter any Variation of macros, is unhealthy and placing unnecesary demands on your body for minimal advatantageous benefits.

[Lost Dog]

Originally Posted by BFG

I think its very much a transatlantic thing tho as I have said before, our diet and eating patterns have always been higher on carbs one of our main staple foods being the potato (altho as of late it does seem to be pasta!!!!) Altho these patterns were also influenced by rationing duing the war.

Unfortunately, the potato is the #1 vegetable in the USA. Bread and pasta are the other big carb sources (not including soda, of course).

Originally Posted by BFG

I think if your body has been continualy provided with carbs from conception to present that to deprive carbs, or for that matter any Variation of macros, is unhealthy and placing unnecesary demands on your body for minimal advatantageous benefits.

Unhealthy?

I'll give you stress, maybe. Stress from the horrible and constant cravings for sweet and all other carbs. This certainly plays into the success of a diet, as the best diet is the one that you will stick to.

I remember a study that tracked low carb, low fat, and simple low calorie diets. They were all roughly the same, fatloss wise (at least in the grand scheme of things). But, adherance was best in the low carb diets.

We do need carbs, but being surrounded by all the wrong ones can make us miserable. Some people do better limiting them, others do better by abstaining.

I don't think the typical human needs grains, legumes, and starchy vegetables, at all. I don't think they specifially need to avoid them, either. Just minimize them. Not even for leanness sake. More for subtle, longterm health reasons.

[BFG]

Originally Posted by Lost_Dog

Unfortunately, the potato is the #1 vegetable in the USA. Bread and pasta are the other big carb sources (not including soda, of course)..

from my observations when visiting a number of times both in a family setting and eating out your ratios of meat to vegetables is far far greater than hours portion wise.

Originally Posted by Lost_Dog

I don't think the typical human needs grains, legumes, and starchy vegetables, at all. I don't think they specifially need to avoid them, either. Just minimize them. Not even for leanness sake. More for subtle, longterm health reasons.

Im of the total opposite opinion same goes for dairy produce the more I think of it the more vegetarian in views I am becoming! heck someone call a medic cos that aint gonna happen!

[Lost Dog]

You might be right about the ratios. However, when we have a guest, we tend to pile on the meat! (I might need to rephrase this...)

As to your vegetarian-ish comment. What's that based upon? You're preference for veggies? Science?

Not that the cavemen were all that, but early man ate a lot of meat compared to how we eat today. They might have eaten a large variety of foods, but it's clear that they DIDN'T have a lot of grains, legumes, and starchy vegetables. Some, of course, but they were hard to eat.

[BFG]

early caveman would have eaten alot more of his animal flesh raw too, so I dont see where this comes into the argument as we dont tend to do that last time I checked.

Everyone harps on about cavemans diet but then forgets about the other tangibles. They negelct the nature of the diet of the wild animals that he consumed. Our meat is farmed, it is interfered with with the introduction of foreign chemicals and is far from the natural state that caveman would have eaten so I dont see it is that relevant in a modern society. Not only that they wouldnt have frozen there meat and refrigorated there meat as we do. Then take into account seasonality and locality of animals, the fact that they were also not cross bred by cavemen to give optimum meat yields and the list goes on.

From memory, and maybe we can get some expert advice from our resident ghuru on this one, but as I understand it caveman would glut on meat when they had a kill, very much a feast and famine affair.

Yet we decide to ignore these variables too.

Its all very pick and mix and I dont see the science in being selective like that.

So the answer is no its just me being my usual opinionated self. Not so much a preference for veggies more of less of a preference for meat.

[BFG]

BIG BIG BIG Sorry Chris didnt mean to hijack your thread got engrossed in the discussion !

[galya]

Hey Chris,
things are looking good. I would up calories a bit and maybe sip a recovery drink mixed with protein during martial arts. Test it and see if it works. If fat loss is your only goal with this plan, it won't be compromised by some carbs during your workout.