Diet, Nutrition and SupplementationPost here for supplement reviews or nutritional advice. If you're trying to get "ripped abz" THIS is where you should be.
So for the past 8+ months I have been eating a vegeterian diet for a bunch of reasons, a major one of which is that the food at my school isn't great, and the vegeterian options are often the most appetizing anyway. Some staples in my diet are egg whites and eggs, hummus and other beans, cottage cheese and other vegetarian protein sources like Black Bean Burgers and Veggie-Burgers. I also use whey and casein protein to supplement.
However, I do eat/drink a fair bit of soy products as well (soymilk etc.). I know the "meat heads" over at T-Nation hate vegetarians and avoid soy like the plague due to its "pro-estrogenic properties." I am wondering if anyone has suggestions of recently produced literature that might shed some additional light on the topic of the dangers of soy consumption. I don't expect I'm gonna go running back to red meat as a result, but I might consider limiting my soy consumption if it is a serious concern.
I mean, I wouldn't want to grow any "feminine pectoral mass" or anything [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img].
other than the fact that they dont know what is GM modified and what isnt any more as the studies were not controlled enough so cross fertilisation occurred. But think of the benefits you could have two mouths to fee and extra arm to kift weights with.......... :-)
two mouths to feed and an extra arm to lift weights..........
but then again that was the story put out in the press and there is no independant evidence to back that up.
Tis funny they are against it really does seem to be that alot of the whey based proteins manufacturers are now starting to launch soy based products too (and you dont fart as much on that allegedly)
I have been a vegetarian for 27 years and am actually considering giving it up. I just turned 50 on Friday, so it's been over half my life. I'm trying to get used to the idea.
I am concerned about soy and also about the fact that, to get anything remotely approaching a "recommended" ratio of protein to carbs to fat I feel like I am practically living on protein supplementation. Unlike you, although I am not "opposed" to eating eggs, I don't because I just can't stand them.
On the topic of soy, here's the link you probably do (or don't) want to see. I'm not sure how much of it to believe...
Dos (an expert who usually posts in the Training section) has mentioned that he is vegan and he has no qualms about eating soy. I can't get the search to work with multiple keywords, or I'd have posted a link.
From what I know (which is extremely limited!) there are no credible human studies that conclusively show soy is harmful to humans or that it will inhibit muscle growth in men.
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From what I know (which is extremely limited!) there are no credible human studies that conclusively show soy is harmful to humans or that it will inhibit muscle growth in men.
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Even so, most soy products have a fair amount of carbs. If soy were your "best" source of protein, you would have a hard time maintaining a "good" balance of protein, carbs, and fat.
I definitely agree about the carbs and soy thing; soy products really only comes into my diet in the PWO window with the exception of tofu, which I will eat at other times. I don't actually eat a huge amount of soy; a good part of my protein intake comes from a mix of protein powders and definitely eggs. When I'm home its more cottage cheese b/c its easier and quicker than cooking eggs, but at school I can get hard boiled eggs by the dozen. Mix with salsa or some jalapeno peppers and it's a lean protein staple food for me.
And thanks for the thread Bjs, it is a good read and identifies an important potential vitamin deficiency as well as highlighting some legitimate concerns about animal testing. I stopped eating meat more due to the relative inefficiency of meat production as opposed to any aversion to animal cruelty, but there are some very good arguments on that side of the coin as well.
I havent looked into it yet but someone mentioned the other day that red kidney beans and wheatgerm pack a far greater punch on the protein front than soy and even quinoa (which I still havent been able to find).
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I havent looked into it yet but someone mentioned the other day that red kidney beans and wheatgerm pack a far greater punch on the protein front than soy and even quinoa (which I still havent been able to find).
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But are they complete protein sources? I've heard the only source for complete protein is meat, dairy and eggs. Everything else is missing some essential amino acid.
wouldnt know to be honest as not a vege so dont focus on it but the science would seem right. Having said that there are plenty of top performing athletes etc who are veges and Im not sure they supplement the missing link as it were.
Shall ask and get back (best friend is one ie a vege and top intl sportsman and a PT)
The general rule of thumb for completing a protein is legume + grain. Classic examples are red beans and rice, whole wheat bread and peanut butter, pinto beans and corn. I suspect to be truly comparable to meat one would need to do a complete analysis to figure out exact proportions and which pairs are better than others.
bleurgh does the paleo diet have side affects like enlarged forehead, hairy feet and a tendency to club your woman over the head? If so that sounds like half the meat heads at my gym! Oh no they are neanderthals!
But are they complete protein sources? I've heard the only source for complete protein is meat, dairy and eggs. Everything else is missing some essential amino acid.
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"Missing" is not quite the right word. Virtually all foods contain all of the essential amino acids in some amount. It is the proportions that are not ideal, so the protein is limited by the one that is lowest compared to its ideal proportion (not very good grammar, sorry). The idea of combining is to match that food with one that is disproportionately high in the amino acid that was low in the other.
Soybeans are closer to the ideal ratio than most vegetable foods. I have heard that buckwheat is pretty good too.
did you know buckwheat is actually a relative of spinach?
*EDIT* Also a little bit of soy wont kill you or turn you into a women. I would love to believe it is as black and white as good or bad but I am afraid it is yet another shade of grey.
I would like to let you guys know that I wrote a post about soy in my blog, my post also contains the positive effects of soy, including the prevention of certain cancers. Anyway, I'm not trying to whore my website, but I'd really like to know what you guys think. Check it out, link below.
I'm not trying to disagree at all - really would like to get to the bottom of this. But two things stuck me in this article:
1. She says she knows of no credible studies that would substantiate these concerns. I would have to ask, then, does she know of any credible studies that contradict them? Or is it just that nobody "credible" has studied it yet? Because you certainly couldn't say that if no one had done a study on whether smoking caused cancer, it would mean that it didn't.
2. The link that I posted (not endorsing or anything -- I'm really wanting to hear what others have to say) claims that Asians eat a whole lot less soy than Americans probably think they do. Also, could there be geneteic factors that would cause it to affect different groups differently?
1. I don't think there have been enough studies done on men to say whether the isoflavones and their estrogen like effects actually have much effect or any on men regarding breast size and weight training. HOWEVER, it has been shown in studies that soy can help prevent/fight cancer. (http://www.aicr.org/site/PageServer?...ter_friendly=1)
As an Asian American I would have to say that you're probably right, while Asians may not drink soy milk and eat tofu at every meal, like some Americans may think, the simple fact is that soy is a considerable amount of their diet. Soy beans, soy milk, tofu, etc...
I've been drinking soy milk for 3 years now and I must say, my cup size hasn't increased at all...:P I also believe that it has not hindered my training results.
I've been drinking soy milk for 3 years now and I must say, my cup size hasn't increased at all...:P I also believe that it has not hindered my training results.
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Given the apparent lack of real scientific studies, I'm interested in everyone's individual experiences. I am 50 and have been veg for 27 years, so I have eaten a lot of soy in my life. I certainly wouldn't say I feel like it's given me breasts or anything like that, but as you can see from my avatar I have had a difficult time putting on muscle though I have been working hard at it. So I've womdered whether a soy - testosterone issue could be at least partly responsible. I have never had my T levels checked. (I did father 2 kids with no trouble (first month of "trying" on both) after 7-9 years of veg'ism.)
it looks like our training differs in goals as well. while you maybe be trying to pack on the pounds, i'm looking to rid myself of a few...i'm also not a veg. i did turbulence training and adam's diet last year and lost a goot 10-15 lbs, and dropped probably 2-3% in bodyfat during this time.
my decision to switch to soy milk also haas to do with how horrible cow's milk is for you...
my decision to switch to soy milk also haas to do with how horrible cow's milk is for you...
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I don't want to change the topic of this thread (still interested in what others have to say about soy), but tell me about cow's milk. What's so bad about it? I drink Organic 1%, so not much fat and no hormones, pesticides, etc.
The Big, Bad Soybean
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