Being a cyclist, I would say that I have always be a huge promotor and advocate for cyclists, but recently I have been having some frustrating experiences with them and I am beginning to think some sort of regulation is in order.
I really like our riverside trails. They have always been a great thing to ride for training/recreation, but they have traditionally been shared by cyclists, walkers, joggers, families, rollerbladers, dog walkers, etc. I took my kids out for a walk last week and we were shellshocked by the end of the ride because of all the idiots with $5000 bikes and $1000 worth of fancy cycling jerseys who would rush right up on us with three kids, then either narrowly miss hitting my two-year old, or act put out that we ruined their ride. They didn't use any bike-etiquette, like announcing that you are riding up "ON YOUR LEFT".
It was reminiscent of my early days in bodybuilding gyms when some steroid mutant would get pissed at you if you were where he wanted to go next. They just really made us feel unwelcome, and it worked. Last time I checked, those trails were for everyone, but I will never go back there with my kids again because it would have been safer to walk them on the shoulder of a freakin' highway. When we finally got back to the car we were all a little shellshocked.
On my way back I noticed that the cyclists were so rude down that stretch that they would ride parallel in the middle of the road with cars behind them and cars coming the other way, and wouldn't move to the side where the bike lane was. Even solo riders were riding out too close to traffic, forcing traffic to come to a halt until there wasn't oncoming traffic so that a car could get around them.
It is hard to admit this kind of frustration when I am trying to be such a strong local advocate to get everyone on bikes, but it's getting to be time for some sort of rules out there. Cyclists have fought hard for bike lanes and consideration from drivers, but now they're just getting pushy and arrogant, like they're the bullies of the riverside trail system.
When I cycled a lot, I got ticked off by the other ones quite often. The non-riders remember the bad ones and don't see the good ones, until you, as a good one, ride by.
I am often embarrassed by what riders do, on and off the road.
Blowing through lights and stop signs. Why are they different from cars? I don't like to stop driving, either.
Riding two or three abreast on narrow highways. Don't have a problem on wide streets, but if cars can't pass you, then you're likely a jerk.
This seems to be an immigrant thing, but a lot of latinos ride on the wrong side of the street. Maybe that's how they do it in Mexico? It's disconcerting when someone "appears" from between to cars, coming right at you!
Group riders that act like they deserve special treatment because they are on a group ride, hogging the whole, narrow road. No problem with organized rides. I've even seen some where one guy goes ahead and actually stops traffic for a few moments. While I'm sure this isn't legal, I actually don't have a problem with it. It's the ones who suddenly breeze through with no organization...
I've ridden on a lot of shared trails. While it's in the pedestrians best interest to look out for us, I feel like it's my responsibility to let them know I'm coming and go slowly enough to be safe. Kids, dogs, and even adults can always dart out, suddenly, hurting all involved.
I've noticed that the more expensive the gear, the lamer these guys are. Unless they're a pro or on a team or something, in which case, they seem to work with the "public" pretty well.
Some of my parks have posted police and Rangers near trailheads on the weekends, handing out flyers (and tickets!).
I make a point of sticking to the rules of the road on my bike. But up here, it seems like the same thing during my commute. It's a common weekly sight (at least): I'm stopped at a light, on the street, and either a cyclist flies through the light or off the sidewalk and a) nearly mows down a ped, or b) narrowly misses kissing some serious grill as a car makes a right turn, takes its light etc.
When some of the anti-cyclists at work bitch about why they don't need to acknowledge bikers on the road, it's morons like these who make it hard to mount a defence.
And don't get me started on the bike couriers around here...
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Fall down seven times, get up eight. -- Japanese Proverb
Amen, brother. We have got some rude bike-riding people in Little Rock now.
And they don't just blow families off the trail. The other day a pack of the jersey-folk spooked my pal Joe, who has a beater bike, so bad he pedaled right down the river bank and almost into the water!
On the other hand, the other day these two walking women were sauntering along by White Oak Bayou, spread out on the trail at the blind curve. And here I come on my little road bike, on the right, right at them, 15 mph.
They don't budge. How am I supposed to get by them?
So, having common sense, I stop my bike short and I try to be pleasant and I say, "Do you realize you're on the wrong side of the trail?"
And they yell at me, I swear, "You people think you own this trail. You don't. We have just as much a right to be here as you do."
So I told them the trail has clearly posted rules that everyone should stay to the right unless passing, and if they had been on the right, we would not have had any problem.
And they said, no kidding, "We move over for people who are coming fast."
I WAS coming fast, until I had to get off my bike to protect them!!
Dopes.
This is my conclusion: Some people are dopes.
I bike, I run, I walk, and everywhere, some people are just dopes.
After having spent over twenty years in retail (That's 20 Christmas seasons!) I have come to realize that people in general are stupid. Stupid cyclists, stupid walkers, stupid weight lifters, stupid drivers, stupid people are stupid people even when participating in something cool.
JP - Take the kids to Two Rivers Park for bike riding. No poseurs and nice flat paved trails. Plus it's a loop!
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Today's mighty oak was once just some nut who held his ground!
I agree, people are just idiots. There are a lot of pretty narrow roads here, and about a million cyclists. We don't have problems. The cyclists move over as far as possible when a car comes, and then we all make due. If the biker doesn't get over, he gets a car horn in his ear. I guess it helps that no one is really in a hurry. But 90% of the drivers are cyclists, so they understand.
So I think it just comes down to people being freaking idiots. We (cyclists) just did get a direct hotline to the Colorado State Patrol though to report road rage - that's pretty freaking sweet. 3 strikes against a driver, and he gets a big fine and ticket. Good stuff!
Nothing to add, just sad it is that way. Maybe write in to the Little Rock Times, expressing your sentiments?
What a terrible idea. Some dope reads it and thinks "Yeah, all those people on bikes ARE bastards." You see, the average person (but not Joe) can't tell the difference between some rude ass on a bike and someone like me (even though it DID cost almost $5K) who will give lots of room, say 'hi', etc.
People can be assholes if they bike, run, swim, lift, fly, skate, breathe, hike, climb, dribble, box, jump, putt, or just live.
Don't forget that we're talking about "trail cyclists" A lot of people down on the river are beginners and just getting into the sport, so perhaps a little slack is in order.
I agree a lot of cyclists on the river need to be schooled on etiquette, but so do the walkers, joggers, and cars. After all, it is a MUP. Many times I've seen people walking 2-3 abreast with their small child running 50 feet in front of them oblivious to their surroundings. I've seen dogs running off leash. I've seen it all.
In the mornings, on the trail about 7 a.m. there's many runners and walkers wearing their Ipods so loud they can't recognize "on your left" It's life.
The only issue I have is with the idea of "poseur." At what moment is someone considered a poseur? Am I a poseur on my nice bike and cycling clothes, though I'll ride 4000 miles this year? Or is Aaron a poseur on his new Orca and team jersey even though he podiumed in his last race? Is there a certain number of miles or ability ranking that keeps one from being placed in this illustrious category? I really think the answer is two part: 1) someone has the means to purchase nice equipment 2) the person has the time to ride. But, that's just my opinion. I'd much rather spend the 15 hours a week that I ride my bike on a nice one in nice clothes. Perhaps I'm a "poseur"....wanna come ride with me?
In Poseurs, which is going a bit off topic, I'm talking about the guy who drops a ton of money on a bike and full kit (just like Lance) and then rides 5 miles every other week. You know he's the same guy that buys the Porche and drives it 10 miles below the speed limit in the left lane on the interstate. Or the guy who hangs at the gym leaning on equipment working his "contacts" more than his muscles. As we used to say around pretty cars with weak engines -- "All show, no go!"
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Today's mighty oak was once just some nut who held his ground!
How do you know who that is just by seeing them riding their bike though? Due to medical issues, I've gained a bit of weight and don't look "fit". If you didn't know me, you might think "look at the chunky poseur girl!" If you don't know the person, but judge them by their equipment, you're really not discriminating about who gets the title. You can't look at someone and know how much they ride, but you can look at them and call them a "poseur". That's the issue with the term.
I don't think the use of the term is "off topic" at all because it represents an attitude expressed in the original post. It is representative of why cyclists get so much shit on the road by being yelled at and having things thrown at them, so they feel like they need to only ride on the path. It's a term that I've come to hate because it's used by haters, in our own sport, even. Yet, it seems that the people who throw the term around are never the ones you see riding their bikes.
Before this degenerates any further into a fight over a carelessly used word...
The original topic I think was respect for others on the trail. Perhaps cyclists get the bad rap as much for the fact that they are the fastest movers on the trail, therefore the least likely to be heard or seen ahead of time as they are for any real bad behavior. Doesn't mean there aren't inconsiderate cyclists, there are inconsiderate cyclists, walkers, joggers, bladers, you name it.
As for children on the path. As a parent I can say that I had to stop taking mine to the river trail for bike riding. She's young, not confident, and doesn't have much control. That makes her a target for fast cyclists. She can't get out of the way fast enough and risks hurting herself to do so. That being said, it makes me a little angry that I can't enjoy that trail with her because it might interrupt somone else's training pace to slow down for a kid. I try to be cautious when I'm riding if I see kids, I know how hard it is for parents on the trail. You can't keep your kid within reach or they can't possibly learn to ride. As a MUP, every single person, child or adult, regardless of skill or speed, should have just as much right to be cycling, walking, jogging, or blading there as the next guy. A little caution and respect would go a long way.
I am not a cyclist. I am a working mother who happens to own 2 really nice bikes. And wears a $3 jersey from the clearance rack at academy. I have a demanding career and a child who deserves my love, time and attention more than my bike does. I'd also like to be able to take her down to the river without fearing that she will get hurt or cause someone else to get hurt.
BTW Silly, I don't know what other people see but I see a dedicated athlete who loves her sport and is in a position in life where she can pursue it wholeheartedly. That's cool.
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The difference between 'involvement' and 'commitment' is like an eggs-and-ham breakfast: the chicken was 'involved' - the pig was 'committed'.
How do you know who that is just by seeing them riding their bike though? Due to medical issues, I've gained a bit of weight and don't look "fit". If you didn't know me, you might think "look at the chunky poseur girl!" If you don't know the person, but judge them by their equipment, you're really not discriminating about who gets the title. You can't look at someone and know how much they ride, but you can look at them and call them a "poseur". That's the issue with the term.
I don't think the use of the term is "off topic" at all because it represents an attitude expressed in the original post. It is representative of why cyclists get so much shit on the road by being yelled at and having things thrown at them, so they feel like they need to only ride on the path. It's a term that I've come to hate because it's used by haters, in our own sport, even. Yet, it seems that the people who throw the term around are never the ones you see riding their bikes.
Until you kick their freaking ass up the mountain!
There is a difference between people not getting out of the way fast enough and people plain out NOT paying attention.
Our MUP are decently wide with 2 lanes. You still get people walking 2 strollers abreast taking up both lanes, and totally not paying attention when you start ringing your bell.
I came over the crest of a hill the other day and half way down the short hill standing directly in the middle of the path is a man and a woman hugging. 3 or 4 kids in various places along the path and 3 unleashed dogs.
Some people don't seem to understand the MUP designation, they seem to think there will only be pedestrians on it.
I don't think it's just a lack of consideration. But I am sure at times we have all been that asshole in the way to someone else.
Use the paths to the best of your ability, show as much consideration as you can and have fun. We as cyclists need to understand that these people will be on the path and we need to ride defensively because of it. I don't want to be the one who smashed into a set of strollers or crashes through a family and runs over the family pet or worse.
Og.
__________________ 2009: No races, No times. Slow year. So, now you're 96 cals short. You're now in starvation mode. Doomed. - LostDog
Blog entry: November 1, 2009, Pancakes LiveSTRONG daily plate log
FAOL--I love your avatar! Is there a story behind it?
Fish - It's a pic of Lone Wolf and Cub, a samurai manga which I believe came to be in the early 70's, and as of late has been picked up by Dark Horse comics.
Anyhoo, imagine a samurai assassin and his infant son, travelling to avenge momma's murder.
After our first daughter was born, I saw this as one really cool father/child relationship , which beat the crap out of all those "What to Expect in the First Year" books. Eat your heart out, Dr. Spock.
My way of staying juvenile, despite entering old-man parenting territory.
Now back to your regular thread...
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Fall down seven times, get up eight. -- Japanese Proverb
It's more or less an unwritten "rule" around here: No training or fast rides on the MUT, period. That's what roads are for. The Greenway path is for walkers, kids, etc. And certain times of day and locations, the Greenway MUT is the best path, but you slow down to go around people walking and you slow way, way down to pass little kids.
If I see someone decked out on a nice bike going all out on a MUT I will call them a "poseur", among several other things, especially if they are rude and inconsiderate and endanger others.
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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." --Benjamin Franklin, 1759
If I see someone decked out on a nice bike going all out on a MUT I will call them a "poseur", among several other things, especially if they are rude and inconsiderate and endanger others.
hear, hear!
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Today's mighty oak was once just some nut who held his ground!
I think the most important thing is for everyone to pay attention to what is going on around them.
Apparently in Calgary riding unlicensed mini-bikes on the street is a fine of $3500. Riding them on the paths is $100.
Nice.
Og.
__________________ 2009: No races, No times. Slow year. So, now you're 96 cals short. You're now in starvation mode. Doomed. - LostDog
Blog entry: November 1, 2009, Pancakes LiveSTRONG daily plate log
As surf breaks have become ever more crowded certain places do have enforcers that aren't afraid to get in people's faces or just run them over.
As in biking there are places where better surfers go and spots for beginners. Even when a newbie shows up at an expert spot theres generally no problem UNLESS he/she's a poseur (yeah it's usually the baby boomer on an expensive board) and starts dropping in on people. Then the shit hits the fan.
Don't be afraid to call assholes out on their stupidity, otherwise they'll keep right on.
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Working "hard," or the perception of working hard, doesn't really mean anything. Sweating, vomiting, and breathing hard could be a good workout or a tropical disease kicking in.-Dan John
Don't be afraid to call assholes out on their stupidity, otherwise they'll keep right on.
Absolutely! Definitely call them out on it when it happens, otherwise they'll never know they're doing something wrong. The problem with our trail is that a lot of these people are afraid of riding on the roads, hills, or in groups of more than 2-3. Usually it's not a problem, but they just don't know better. A lot of us, though, use it as a commuter way or for easy spins. It's the term "poseur" in reference to dollars spent that bothers me the most. Of course they're out there, I know a few that truly embody the term. However, mostly it's used derogatorily referencing "serious" cyclists.
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If I see someone decked out on a nice bike going all out on a MUT I will call them a "poseur", among several other things, especially if they are rude and inconsiderate and endanger others.
Our MUP speed limit is 20, occasionally, early in the mornings or late evenings I will break it. I'm usually the only one out there. It's all about having the ability to distinguish when it's acceptable and when it's not.
It's all about having the ability to distinguish when it's acceptable and when it's not.
EXACTLY!!!
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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." --Benjamin Franklin, 1759
ODBG, I hear ya. I see the lack of consideration on both sides, but walking aimlessly into someone doesn't break bones. We were walking, not riding, BTW.
Silly, you hit it. There are times when lots of families are out there. Maybe they should keep cyclists off the inside trail during busy hours (5pm-8pm)? Mornings are a great time to do your speed training without (much) worry about running into young families.
Eric, don't forget who was the first to the summit there buddy! Not bad for a fat, injured, burned out 38 y/o trainer, eh?
I don't want to sound too harsh. I was still pretty raw over it when I typed out the original post. Sadly I just acknowledged that I won't take my family there anymore. There are safe places we can walk. I am really happy to see cycling taking off like it is in Little Rock. Those poseurs are helping bring in high-end bike shops with their disposable income and spending habits so I am very thankful for them. Even if they aren't the most considerate, some of them do actually get pretty good at it too.
I will probably write something up to BACA so they can possibly do some sort of cyclist community alert to follow trail etiquette more carefully out there.
You don't really think that poseurs with lots of disposable income are BACA members do you? The phrase "preaching to the choir" comes to mind, but good luck! Hopefully, you've found somewhere for your walks that you feel a little safer. Some of those guys really do zoom by at times. Just out of curiousity, why was your 2 year old walking on the outside (left) of your group? Or is that a misunderstanding I got from reading your initial post?
Sometimes, I'm scared to say anything when there are kids are involved as they are (most of the time) very unpredictable. I always slow down, and try to give a wide berth, but lots of time 'on your left' gets people turning to look back and drifting yup, you guessed it over to the left.
For the most part they were sticking with us on the right, but you know how unpredictable kids can be. They just lose track of instructions and wander into the center of the trail. I got pissed and yelled at them for not obeying at one point, which got two of them crying all the way back, adding to my already blissful state.
...which got two of them crying all the way back, adding to my already blissful state.
Ugh. I really feel for ya with that one. I'm glad nothing bad happened though.
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Originally Posted by Jean-Paul
Yeah, that's what I heard. I wish I could have gone with you. I would have sucked, but it would have been fun.
What a very cyclist attitude. It seems like to really have a good time on a bike, you've almost GOT to suffer. It's weird how your outlook changes once you realize that; I know mine did.
Eric, don't forget who was the first to the summit there buddy! Not bad for a fat, injured, burned out 38 y/o trainer, eh?
Hey, don't forget what 38 y/o chunky chick had her nose up your arse every time you slowed down all the way up either!!
If anyone qualifies as "poseur" purely for expense of equipment versus skill and riding time it would be me. I hope that the understanding of the use of "poseur" as a derogatory term would not be just because someone has nice stuff...but because they have nice stuff or crappy stuff but have a SUCKY attitude and ride in the street when the don't have to, blocking traffic and basically telling drivers to suck it, or speed on crowded trails just because they can go 25-30 mph on their bike oblivious to the safety of others, or constantly pointing out to others just how good they are without really being able to back it up...it's an attitude not an amount of cash spent.
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The difference between 'involvement' and 'commitment' is like an eggs-and-ham breakfast: the chicken was 'involved' - the pig was 'committed'.
Going back to what's going on in Little Rock, our fundamental problem is the scarcity of the trail resource.
We will continue to have these (classic) conflicts over the multiuse trails because there really are not enough safe places for general-public exercise here yet.
We don't have enough flat trails for the rollerbladers. We don't have enough shady trails for walking families. We don't have enough places where a busy working mom can take her little girl to learn to bike.
Those rude cycle-jersey guys have no place else to go —*unless they want to risk being sidelighted by boat-hauling pickups out on Arkansas 10.
We're all forced to use the same cramped 14-mile stretches.
And it doesn't have to be this way. Urban planning can give us such a better world.
Saturday I rode a blissful 73 miles by just wandering around in Maumelle. Maumelle. Now I'm not about to say it's great in Maumelle, everybody go there, but it IS a city where it's not hard to bike on the streets.
I only switched from pavement to that little asphalt trail that lines highway 100 for the variety! (Of course, the 10 miles of halfway-constructed cul-de-sacs with a portapotty on every corner helped, too, but still).
I could not stop grinning.
Little Rock just needs more infrastructure. JP, you've told me that yourself. That's what's going on here: not enough infrastructure yet.
I only hope the conflicts caused by overcrowding on what little trail we do have aren't misinterpreted as reasons to block construction of more!! Which is often the thinking behind the anti-biking fervor on the Times blog, by the way.
If anyone qualifies as "poseur" purely for expense of equipment versus skill and riding time it would be me. I hope that the understanding of the use of "poseur" as a derogatory term would not be just because someone has nice stuff...but because they have nice stuff or crappy stuff but have a SUCKY attitude and ride in the street when the don't have to, blocking traffic and basically telling drivers to suck it, or speed on crowded trails just because they can go 25-30 mph on their bike oblivious to the safety of others, or constantly pointing out to others just how good they are without really being able to back it up...it's an attitude not an amount of cash spent.
It's tough to discern attitude when on a bike and not talking to you, though. That's what sucks the most about using the word.... Just Friday, though, there was a guy saying that his groups rides the NLR side of the river every Tue/Thur at about 24...Now, I know he's lying because it's difficult to maintain a 24mph average and he can't, but I was quick to point out how shitty / unsafe it was to ride that fast on the path at 6:30 in the evening. He would qualify as an asshat, in my book. My issue is that it's silly to think we can look at someone and label them while they're on the bike...You would've had to talk to this guy to know he was full of it.
it's up to the individual rider to know when to overtake the lane based on their level of comfort, so I'm not sure that qualifies.
I'm beginning to not like local cyclists
, which beat the crap out of all those "What to Expect in the First Year" books. Eat your heart out, Dr. Spock.
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