At least one U.S. soldier opened fire Thursday at Fort Hood, Texas, killing 12 people and wounding 31 others, military officials said.
One gunman was shot to death, and two other soldiers were in custody, Lt. Gen. Bob Cone told reporters. It was not immediately known whether the victims were all soldiers or civilians, but Cone said at least one of those killed was a civilian police officer and NBC affiliate KCEN-TV of Waco reported that at least four SWAT officers were among those wounded.
Fort Hood, one of the largest military complexes in the world, was on lockdown, as were schools in the area.
Cone gave no further details on the dead gunman. A senior administration official told NBC News analyst Roger Cressey that one of the suspects who was in custody was an Army major.
The official said the shootings could have been a criminal matter rather than a terrorism-related attack and that there was no intelligence to suggest a plot against Fort Hood.
So far this appears to be soldier-on-soldier violence. I wonder if any of the gunmen just returned from deployment(s) or suffered from PTSD.... tragic no matter what the cause, regardless.
You really have no idea what multiple deployments or dealing with the sequelae of multiple deployments can do to a mental health provider. Last time I checked, there is no reason why MUSLIMS can't serve in the armed forces.
A MUSLIM army psychiatrist unhappy about being deployed.
1) Hes not the only soldier (Muslim, Christian, or otherwise) unhappy about being deployed
2) Hes not the only soldier (or politician, or American of any race or creed) who believes we need to get out
3) Even Ron Paul has said that if WE had an occupying force in this nation, we would rise the hell up and he explained why the behavior of insurgents is 'understandable.'
To imply that him being MUSLIM is the strongest factor without any analysis of his state of mind or any other facts is beyond retarded. Just as retarded as pointing he was SINGLE, thus gotta watch those single people! Or how Von Bron, who went on a shooting spree here in DC, was WHITE. And nevermind the fact that Muslim groups have risen up to denounce his actions as well.
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He got his medical degree on the government dime - surely he realized that this could involve a deployment. I am going with this guy being a mental case of one sort or another.
Try multiple deployments providing mental health care services to other deployed soldiers and see how much normalcy you're able to retain before you point fingers of blame. Seriously. If we're going to continue this nation-building bullshit, it's time for a draft. 2% of the country shouldn't be bearing the burden for this crap with repeated deployments, and it's ludicrous to think the military can continue to bear this burden without this becoming more commonplace.
Regardless of this particular person's motivations, I can assure you that the more stress you put on the active duty troops, the more that others will start to crack and do unspeakable acts of violence, self- and outwardly directed.
Support the troops in reality rather than with empty slogans. Send your kids. We need more bodies for the meat grinder. Hell, let's *win* in Afghanistan and actually send the, what, 670000 people there needed to control the country to complete the mission, whatever that mission purportedly is these days.
I know Ralph and Sal may have a different POV, but I'm providing health care to these people and it's fucking them up. And I'm just their dermatologist! I can't even imagine what the psychiatrists are encountering.
You really have no idea what multiple deployments or dealing with the sequelae of multiple deployments can do to a mental health provider. Last time I checked, there is no reason why MUSLIMS can't serve in the armed forces.
Give me a break.
Stating the truth doesn't make me a bigot, ignoring the facts is typical of someone on the left.
He got his medical degree on the government dime - surely he realized that this could involve a deployment. I am going with this guy being a mental case of one sort or another.
Sure.
Do any of us actually realize what that REALLY means before you actually go DO this shit?
"Knowing" you'll have to be deployed somewhere, even "knowing" you may be deployed somewhere bad/dangerous/shitty/whatever versus somewhere "nice" still doesn't prepare someone for the reality of the shit they encounter.
The people I know back here are a bit fucked up, and they all had relatively cushy jobs in Iraq/Afghanistan.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3sweeties
Stating the truth doesn't make me a bigot, ignoring the facts is typical of someone on the left.
Thinking it's significant by itself is where you're catching your flack. Even more than marital status or color, considering Islam is a peaceful religion.
Stating the truth doesn't make me a bigot, ignoring the facts is typical of someone on the left.
This morning news has been very interesting.
You typed MUSLIM in big capital letters meaning emphasis. Yes you are a bigot. Once you can accept that fact you might be able to learn from your past transgressions and turn the page in your life and attempt to be a little more tolerant of people who are not exact carbon copies of you.
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Why is it 3sweeties gets hammered every time she posts? If you want to challenge her posts as uninformed or inaccurate – okay. But I don’t think it is fair to call her a bigot or any other name when she points out, correctly, that the shooter is a Muslim.
The reporting so far does not support a PTSD claim, he was going on his first deployment to Iraq or Afghanistan. NBC also reported that he was assigned to Ft Hood following a poor efficiency report, and that he argued against the war with his coworkers.
Right now, a serving officer betrayed his commission, his Hippocratic oath and his duty to his fellow soldiers. I hope he rots in Tier 1 at Leavenworth.
TK
Tina- happy to have an argument about a DRAFT. It would be a chance to watch this generation shirk their civic duty, much like the baby boomers.
It's starting to look like the suspect was a loner, and overall a very disturbed individual. He had never done a deployment outside the US. But there has been so much conflicting information released thus far, that we can't really draw any conclusions about these events.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aoife
Thinking it's significant by itself is where you're catching your flack. Even more than marital status or color, considering Islam is a peaceful religion.
Very well-put. His religion alone didn't drive him to commit to such a heinous act. There have even been some reports indicating that he wasn't a particularly observant Muslim. I was speaking with one of my friends last night who lives at Hood, and her views are very right-wing. But even she said that the shitty thing that will happen from all of this is that a lot of folks will unjustly pin the blame on Islam and Muslims, and not see this incident for what it is: the actions of a deranged individual.
Dh and I lived on Hood last year, and it was obvious how multiple deployments have affected the personnel there. When you leave post through one of the gates, there's a sign that says "___ days since the last accident," meaning "x" number of days since the last fatal one. Usually, it would be something like "2" or "5" because a lot of the soldiers who return from Iraq/Afghanistan come back with a "fuck-it-all" mentality, and engage in high-risk behavior, incl. driving recklessly/drunk/on a motorcycle without a helmet.
Yeah, NYC Native, I've been seeing conflicting reports. He was prior enlisted... or not. He's had a single or multiple deployments... or none.
Here's what we DO know:
1. Dude was under serious obligation to the Army. I went to the same medical school as he did (in fact, he was there but as a 3rd or 4th year student when I attended, so I don't remember ever encountering him). The obligation just to go to the school is 7 years AFTER you complete your training. So, they get you for approximately 15 years (med school years don't count toward your 20 though until you hit 20 outside of the med school years then they add them on your total time in service for retirement purposes).
2. He was a psychiatrist. Whether he did or did not deploy, he DID deal with the ramifications of Iraq, Afghanistan, and the other smaller conflicts across the globe on a daily basis. He worked at Walter Reed prior to Ft Hood for 8 yrs. This is one of the "Wounded Warrior" centers, that deals with the people who got *blowed up*. So, lots of severe and disfiguring trauma, burns, and loooooooooooooooooooots of PTSD and other psych issues.
3. He was a Muslim. I'm reading he was devout, but so what.... as Aoife points out, the basic tenets of Islam are peaceful. He was being readied for deployment to either Afghanistan or Iraq--again, conflicting reports on that. He was upset about the deployment and reportedl had asked for a release from his contractual obligation with the big boot to the neck of NFW given by the Army. He even offered to pay back his med school debt with cash and they still said NFW. That's unclear, but damn I feel his pain on that as well.
4. He was a loner.
So really, most of the rest is sheer speculation at this point. The facts listed above are enough to push someone over the edge.
I'm not excusing his behavior. It's a horrible tragedy, and many people needlessly lost their life. It's happened in schoolyards, in post offices, at shopping malls. This is not unique, sadly.
will unjustly pin the blame on Islam and Muslims, and not see this incident for what it is: the actions of a deranged individual.
If this was the motivating factor, I think it is fair to discuss it as that. Reports say that he was shouting "God is Great" which is reported what is shouted before other suicide attacks. There seems to be alot more going on than just a stressed military worker.
I also think a case can be made that Islam is not a peaceful religion.
You could definitely say the same about Christianity. All religions have an ugly side.
And screaming "God is Great"... kind of non specific. Haven't you ever heard people yell "holy christ!", or "Oh my gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawd" or something of that sort when they're excited/scared?
Why is it 3sweeties gets hammered every time she posts? If you want to challenge her posts as uninformed or inaccurate – okay. But I don’t think it is fair to call her a bigot or any other name when she points out, correctly, that the shooter is a Muslim.
I agree that the responses were a bit strong to her post, but her comment wasn't a mere observation of facts. Her comment was laced with bigoted overtones. I think a better response would be to point that out, rather than calling her a bigot.
Do any of us actually realize what that REALLY means before you actually go DO this shit? "Knowing" you'll have to be deployed somewhere, even "knowing" you may be deployed somewhere bad/dangerous/shitty/whatever versus somewhere "nice" still doesn't prepare someone for the reality of the shit they encounter.
Been there, Done that. And I was 'anti-war', during Vietnam, but no one knew unless they got me in a serious discussion. Few were interested in my views, and I did not encourage an interest. I have NEVER heard of someone from one of the three classic professions (law, medicine, the clergy) going berserk, ever. No excuse from any rational point of view. From any caring point of view. From any point of view.
I also think a case can be made that Islam is not a peaceful religion.
You would be wrong.
Just because people who follow a religion are unpeacefull or hell, even outright "evil" doesn't say a thing about the RELIGION. Shit on him for being an asshole, or crazy, or any number of things. But your thinking is greatly flawed if you think Islam isn't a peaceful religion. So is Christianity. And they have both had gynormous assholes, even assholes in charge, that have done unspeakable things to countless innocents. It's the power, the people, but not the religion. To think such is not only grossly unfair to all the adherents who follow the paths without being hellacious cocks, it distracts you from the true problems and makes you unable to fix them. And instead, being locked into an unending fight of us versus them and constant fear and distrust of the stranger, nothing ever gets fixed and the beat goes on…
If this was the motivating factor, I think it is fair to discuss it as that. Reports say that he was shouting "God is Great" which is reported what is shouted before other suicide attacks. There seems to be alot more going on than just a stressed military worker.
And then, if it were, it would be HIS fucked up INTERPRETATION of Islam that would be such, not the religion itself.
Anybody want to tally up Christianity's death toll? Oh wait Christians are good white hard-workin' merkans, so their brand of irrational lunacy is OK despite being nearly identical to Islam's brand of irrational lunacy.
If I come into a thread and go a CHRISTIAN shooter killed X people (PS this really happens), turns out people are going to think I've got a reason for implicating Christianity as a causative factor.
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If I come into a thread and go a CHRISTIAN shooter killed X people (PS this really happens), turns out people are going to think I've got a reason for implicating Christianity as a causative factor.
That would be a valid analogy if the following were also true:
-- The Christian killer lived in a predominately Muslim nation
-- He had been regularly ridiculed for his faith
-- His country was at war with a nation that was mostly Christian. The Christians attacked first and killed 3,000 Muslim civilians, then his Muslim nation counterattacked and has killed at least 20X that amount with no end in sight. And while his foreign faith-partners die by the thousands, he counsels daily with the Muslim soldiers racked with guilt and dysfunction after killing all those Christians.
-- He had told his Muslim superiors that he struggled with his nation's call to go and kill Christians, but was met with the standard military answer to do his duty.
I'm not excusing his actions by any means. But at least thought exercises like this help me to understand a little better.
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The point I'm getting at is that it's hypocritical to blame Religious Insanity Type A for doing an act, when you don't blame Religious Insanity Type B for the exact same act, simply because you happen to think Type B is a good idea and have spent your entire life with the assumption that it's true.
That's how these stupid-ass religious conflicts start out in the first place.
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Totally with you there, and it'd be fun to have a separate thread devoted to the connections between religion and violence (both domestically and in war).
You're right that it's ridiculous to pull out one trait of the gunman and define it as a contributor to his actions. We just have no clue yet what the story is.
It's like a few weeks ago when someone assaulted a jeweler before running out of the store with stolen property. I can't figure out if it was because the perp was female, Christian, over the age of 50, a football fan or my mom. But to be fair let's assume her Christianity was the problem.
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It's like a few weeks ago when someone assaulted a jeweler before running out of the store with stolen property. I can't figure out if it was because the perp was female, Christian, over the age of 50, a football fan or my mom. But to be fair let's assume her Christianity was the problem.
Of course, if you actually used this logic across other aspects of your life, you shouldn't take one racist and apply all dissent against Obama as typical of republican racists. On the other hand, no one stood up and protested when Matt did that. So all you holier than thou people ought to do a bit of self reflection, eh?
Ft Hood shooting
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