So...I've been doing some reading...and I'm having trouble with the whole...you can't build muscle while you're in a deficit thing...but...I feel like I have, both this time and also last year when I was in WAYYY too much of a deficit for what I was doing...
When I was training with a different woman last January, she had me on a REALLY low carb diet. 70grams or less a day, and the calories because of this were insanely low for my weigh, I was averaging about 1400-1600 calories a day. I wasn't doing as much cardio as I am now, but I was doing much heavier workouts both in terms of actual weight lifted and exercises being done. I wasn't feeling particularly weak or tired...and I was definitely putting on muscle, because when I stopped with her and changed my training, I could feel a difference, especially in my triceps and quads. I am getting that muscle back now...but I am confused...from what I am reading they say you can't build muscle on a low deficit...or you don't usually?? It takes something like 2800 calories to build 1 lb of muscle or something?
I would rather keep some muscle while I am losing, as opposed to losing fat and muscle while dieting so I try to keep my protein levels up. It makes more sense to me to do this slowly and make sure it's not water/muscle that I lose but really fat. I base my losses more heavily on my measurements than on my actual weight loss anyway...but it was just something that was confusing me!!!
You can get stronger. You don't build more muscle (hypertrophy, actually gaining muscle mass). There's a difference between putting on mass and simply getting stronger with the mass you have. That's why you can have tiny girls lifting big weights. They're strong, not big.
As for muscle coming back, it's just regaining your strength, that's all. Muscle memory.
I'm definitely stronger than I was when I started. I can feel it lifting things other than the weights. However, I know I've likely lost muscle mass, but that's okay. I'm still losing more fat, so I'm happy. It's not realistic to think that you'll only lose fat, not with a lot to lose. The good news is that I've kept my weight loss humming along with almost 16 weeks with a loss every week. No plateaus like I was seeing before starting NROL4W. Of course you may find differences as I wasn't lifting any weights really before starting.
I'm definitely stronger than I was when I started. I can feel it lifting things other than the weights. However, I know I've likely lost muscle mass, but that's okay. I'm still losing more fat, so I'm happy. It's not realistic to think that you'll only lose fat, not with a lot to lose. The good news is that I've kept my weight loss humming along with almost 16 weeks with a loss every week. No plateaus like I was seeing before starting NROL4W. Of course you may find differences as I wasn't lifting any weights really before starting.
I know I definitely feel stronger, but I don't feel like I lost muscle mass, except for when I was having my medical issues and I wasn't working out....(about 2 months) It's weird...I could literally feel and see the difference. Oh well, as long as the weight continues on it's downward trend I'm happy! I'm looking forward to starting NROLW...even with the concessions for my knees...
You can get stronger. You don't build more muscle (hypertrophy, actually gaining muscle mass). There's a difference between putting on mass and simply getting stronger with the mass you have. That's why you can have tiny girls lifting big weights. They're strong, not big.
As for muscle coming back, it's just regaining your strength, that's all. Muscle memory.
I suppose I could lose fat faster if I gave up on the weight training, but I feel so much better mentally when I know I'm stronger... So as long as it's a steady loss so far..I'll trade a bit of muscle as well during the fat loss...and keep a bit of strength as I go down in lbs...
I'm not really in a hurry...so I guess if it's working there's no reason to change it right now! When I hit a plateau...then I'll talk changes.
My point being...if I train hard I eat more...so if I didn't do as much hard training it would be easier to eat less since I'd be less hungry than when I lift heavier.
I think, however, you're mistaking volume and intensity with being heavier.
In my experience, the heavier I go, into low rep territory, the far less intense the overall session, and therefore the easier to keep an aggressive deficit, versuses mid to high rep training, which is more agressive (and uses less weight).
From what I'm seeing in your training, you're still really high rep. You're 15+ which is high rep.
The point being reps. And if you want to train for strength, high rep isn't usually the path most people take, except for training strength endurance.
So, if you want a more aggressive deficit, and still lift heavy, just lower your reps. Your workouts won't be so demanding and your hunger level could well go down, even at that bigger deficit.
I suppose I could lose fat faster if I gave up on the weight training
Actually, given the same deficit, you lose fat faster with weight training.
For every 3500 calories (in a week, let's say), you lose 1lb. 1lb of what?
If you're weight training, you might lose 90% fat. If you're not, it might be 50% fat. So, ten weeks on weight training and you've lost 10lbs, but 9lbs of fat. Ten weeks of just cardio or no training and you've still lost 10lbs, but only 5lbs of fat.
The trick is to manage your energy and training demands.
If one has a substantial amount of weight to lost, I don't think there is any way around losing some of the LBM. If you do the math, it just wouldn't work.
Example of someone who weighs 300 lbs and has 50% BF and whose ideal weight is 150. If they have 150 lbs of LBM and 150 lbs of fat, and want their goal weight to be 150, they can't just lose the fat and be zero percent BF. Some of the lean has to go and some of the fat has to stay.
If one has a substantial amount of weight to lost, I don't think there is any way around losing some of the LBM. If you do the math, it just wouldn't work.
Example of someone who weighs 300 lbs and has 50% BF and whose ideal weight is 150. If they have 150 lbs of LBM and 150 lbs of fat, and want their goal weight to be 150, they can't just lose the fat and be zero percent BF. Some of the lean has to go and some of the fat has to stay.
^^ Exactly... Roland's point is good too... and - what Aoife said about reps is SO important.
You can still try to minimize loss of LBM, but some will go. That's where many of us are in our programs... Keep lifting - HOWEVER - lift lower reps, but heavy. You'll get less exhausted and more LBM retention that way... Definitely less than 10 reps, maybe even as low as 4 or 5... try it and see how you feel!
You're right. My math was a bit slanted. You'd have to make estimates based on some of what Jane said.
I know that some of the LBM is water and connective tissue to support fat. Some of that has to go, of course. How much of that is burned off, I don't know. Water weight doesn't get burned off, for instance. It will just disappears.
It is commonly accepted that it is impossible to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time while following a calorie restricted diet, but there have been studies proving this wrong. I had a hard time finding the article, but finally dug it up.
It was a small sample group, but 14 women were given an 800 calorie diet for 90 days. Half the group did weight training (WT) and the other half remained sedentary (C).
Quote:
The two groups lost the same amount of weight - approximately 33 pounds.
The lifting group, however, actually increased muscle mass by 21 to 27
percent, while the non-lifting group lost muscle, along with fat.
Quote:
"These results indicate that weight training can elicit muscle fiber
hypertrophy during periods of severe energy restriction," said the researchers.
"Strength declined in the sedentary group during the weight reduction but
increased in the weight-trained group."
I do believe you can lose fat and gain muscle at the same time. Certainly, maintain, to an extent. However, if one is carrying a lot of extra weight, there is no way to get around the loss of LBM eventually if one is to get to their goal weight, since someone who weighs a lot probably carries as much LBM or more LBM than their goal weight. KWIM?
I do believe you can lose fat and gain muscle at the same time. Certainly, maintain, to an extent. However, if one is carrying a lot of extra weight, there is no way to get around the loss of LBM eventually if one is to get to their goal weight, since someone who weighs a lot probably carries as much LBM or more LBM than their goal weight. KWIM?
I'll pipe up with my info here. According to the silly scale (that I don't trust) my BF number is around 54%. Although from what I've seen with other people's BodPod numbers it might be low. However, let's assume for the moment that it's accurate. Using yesterday's numbers that gives me 134.7lbs LBM. Assuming I'm aiming for 20% BF (and I have no real idea what I'm aiming for at the moment) that would put my weight at 161.6 if I lost no LBM. At 5'4" I'm really aiming for something 30 - 40 lbs lighter, so somewhere along the way I will need to lose LBM. I can attempt to limit it, but I definitely want to lose some of it.
I'm definitely stronger since I started NROL4W. Not just with the specific lifts but with every day items. The most obvious is lifting the full propane tank out of the truck. I used to have to put it down at least once or twice getting it around the back. A few weeks ago I just picked it up and carried it around back, with almost no effort.
Other than muscle, there are some "phantom" components to LBM, too. Water is part of your LBM, as is bone, blood, cartilage, and misc connective tissue. Some of these things are burned off, but some just "go away." Water and the excess blood volume to support excess fat mass, for instance. Bone mass may not just go away, but it's not really burned off, either. The molecular mass of the other LBM components is small. They are filled with water, however. Which is not burned off, but goes away, nevertheless.
If you could retain all your muscle and lose only fat (still not going to happen) you'd likely be more muscular than a 5'4" woman who'd never been overweight, but
weight isn't the important part, in the end.
Thanks to all of you for explaining some things to me! I knew a little coming into this, but now I am learning so much more...I was so confused by everyone talking about taking days off from heavy training...and not training heavy because it makes you hungry...that I lost sight of what the point is for me...which is to lose weight!! I am still losing steadily even if it is only a lb a week sometimes...anything in the right direction is good for me. I feel like the more slowly and steadily it comes off the best chance I have for it staying off!
I will have to talk to the trainer again...about lower reps...and some heavier weights. I am capable of lifting it...and I like to...plus I think he hasn't picked up a book in like 10+ years...I also have a feeling he's never trained anyone as heavy as I am. Also maybe it's time to get rid of him once my sessions are up. I am just so afraid of gaining weight...changing it all and doing something wrong...and not continuing my loss. Something I will have to get over I suppose!
Right now I am still losing...but I feel like I might be doing something wrong...and maybe to get to that 2 lbs a week loss I could tweak some things. I currently eat around 1800-2000 calories on my non workout days (sometimes less)...and about 2100-2300 on my workout days (also sometimes less). I was calculating my actual needed intake...and it was saying I may need to eat more calories. I have such a hard time with that...given that I have always been taught to eat less when dieting...we'll see maybe a tweak here and there...and it will be better!!
I currently eat around 1800-2000 calories on my non workout days (sometimes less)...and about 2100-2300 on my workout days (also sometimes less). I was calculating my actual needed intake...and it was saying I may need to eat more calories. I have such a hard time with that...given that I have always been taught to eat less when dieting...we'll see maybe a tweak here and there...and it will be better!!
Everyone is different, however, I'm eating 2150 on rest days and 2400 on cardio and lifting days. I was eating more on lifting days but I had a hard time keeping the protein levels up on those days so I decided to simplify it for myself. It also means that on the days that I've been sidetracked I just reduce my calories to the lower levels. I've done this for the month of June and it hasn't slowed my loss at all. In fact it may even be going a little faster.
Without going into the whole long boring story, eating very low doesn't work for me. I suppose it never really has, but the last time I did lose weight, hit a plateau and kept cutting the calories until my body gave me a wake-up call. My personal thoughts is to go with what the book recommends for a couple of weeks (I think they suggest 4) and see how it goes. Your situation may be quite different though since you're already doing some lifting. I wasn't, so it was a big shake-up to my system.
Oh, and everyone is different, but I cut down on the wide ranges of eating numbers. I tended to eat to the high side anyways. Now I just pick a number and consider anything within 25 cals either side is acceptable.
I think if you're losing a pound or two a week you should just keep your calories where they are. That's a good defecit and a good rate of loss. Once you STOP losing, you may need to reconsider. Just remember to not push yourself too hard and to take some "down" weeks here and there.
Regarding the trainer, why not just keep him for the things you like doing - like the boxing. He teaches that right? Maybe have hubby help you with the lifting program, something w/low reps and heavy weights. Or, do one session w/the trainer and then do the rest on your own. There's nothing saying you can't do a higher-rep workout once a week and two low-rep workouts a week. Just mix it up.
Keep educating yourself - that's the best thing you can do. Keep what works for you, toss what doesn't... You see people all over this forum having various levels of success and struggle - often with nearly the same program! You like lifting heavy, so learn to do it right and safely. If your trainer is willing to learn and you actually think he's helfpul - great. If not, why are you spending your money on him? Or use him, as Jill suggested, for boxing but not lifting...
You know what's right - but take it from one who's been there - don't let fear make your decisions for you. You KNOW what the right workouts are.
You're gonna have to stand on your own at some point. And by standing on your own, I mean surround yourself with caring and support and learn to trust that and walk without holding someone's hand. And really, I don't think it'd be any different if you did it now or later. It's just fear of the unknown, and the answer there is to go explore.
I think if you're losing a pound or two a week you should just keep your calories where they are. That's a good defecit and a good rate of loss. Once you STOP losing, you may need to reconsider. Just remember to not push yourself too hard and to take some "down" weeks here and there.
Regarding the trainer, why not just keep him for the things you like doing - like the boxing. He teaches that right? Maybe have hubby help you with the lifting program, something w/low reps and heavy weights. Or, do one session w/the trainer and then do the rest on your own. There's nothing saying you can't do a higher-rep workout once a week and two low-rep workouts a week. Just mix it up.
You're doing great!
I guess I have to try not to over-analyze things while they are working! If it ain't broke don't fix it right?? I am learning how and when to back off when I am training too much...as long as I keep that in check I think I'll be ok.
I think I may just do that with the trainer...I really enjoy the boxing...it's nice to beat the crap out of something...and if I did it twice a week with him...I'd get rid of twice as much stress!!! I'll talk to him tonight...and the hubby can definitely put something together with me...I just need to take the jump by myself!!! Thank you so much for your support!!! ...and Kittehs....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bytsi
Keep educating yourself - that's the best thing you can do. Keep what works for you, toss what doesn't... You see people all over this forum having various levels of success and struggle - often with nearly the same program! You like lifting heavy, so learn to do it right and safely. If your trainer is willing to learn and you actually think he's helfpul - great. If not, why are you spending your money on him? Or use him, as Jill suggested, for boxing but not lifting...
You know what's right - but take it from one who's been there - don't let fear make your decisions for you. You KNOW what the right workouts are.
I agree totally...I just need to DO it...lol...I have to have faith in myself and my knowledge, and ask or reseach what I am confused about...and then just DO IT!!! Listening to my body is getting easier and easier...in terms of food and even the exercise now...so I guess I just have to go with it!!! Thanks so much Bysti....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aoife
You're gonna have to stand on your own at some point. And by standing on your own, I mean surround yourself with caring and support and learn to trust that and walk without holding someone's hand. And really, I don't think it'd be any different if you did it now or later. It's just fear of the unknown, and the answer there is to go explore.
God I am bad at saying this...but you are absolutely right. I need to do it myself, otherwise I'll be relying on a trainer my entire life...and really I'd eventually like to have a new car...instead of paying his mortgage...lol When my package is up...I'll be on my own, and in the meantime I'll be boxing and doing routines by me and the hubster...then...we'll drop the trainer when I'm done...and VOILA...I'll be on my own...(unless I really like boxing...then I may take a class or two...
I read through your log and I know you can totally do this without a trainer. I've been lifting weights for around 10 years, but only really made visible progress the last year or so. I think the reason is that before I discovered New Rules, I would just do the same thing over and over again and besides not stimulating my muscles anymore it got pretty boring and made me feel unmotivated. For me, the secret to motivating myself was doing a program that keeps changing, so you always have something new to look forward to trying and doing. Plus if you have some performance-related goals in your mind, like lifting a certain weight, then you keep wanting to work closer and closer to those.
Good luck and I hope you are joining the August challenge!
I read through your log and I know you can totally do this without a trainer. I've been lifting weights for around 10 years, but only really made visible progress the last year or so. I think the reason is that before I discovered New Rules, I would just do the same thing over and over again and besides not stimulating my muscles anymore it got pretty boring and made me feel unmotivated. For me, the secret to motivating myself was doing a program that keeps changing, so you always have something new to look forward to trying and doing. Plus if you have some performance-related goals in your mind, like lifting a certain weight, then you keep wanting to work closer and closer to those.
Good luck and I hope you are joining the August challenge!
Thanks so much...I am planning on the joining the August challenge...hopefully by then it'll be time for another change...I'm going to try and adapt the NROLW workouts for my knees (arthritic knee caps) and see how it goes for me! I was stuck in that over and over again rut too...the boxing really gave me another option...and hopefully this new routine will be just what I need right now.
Shoulder Press 30 lbs x 15 x 3 sets
Lateral Raises 15 lbs x 15 x 3 sets
Superset Seated Row (pull, hold for 5 secs, let go slowly)
40 lbs x 15
50 lbs x 15
60 lbs x 10
Hammer Curls
15 lbs x 15 x 3 sets
Push Downs
50 lbs x 15
60 lbs x 15
70 lbs x 10
Abs
Superset
(Hands on Thighs Slide up) Crunches 25 x 3 sets
Plank
30 secs
20 secs
20 secs
Tonight was fine until the planks...my feet kept sliding on the mat, and when they did that my elbows ended up too far in front of me and when I got up after the last set, my arm down to my pinky was tingly! I have done this before...and I know exactly why it happened. Next time I'll suggest I put my feet on the floor...so they don't slide as much. After the second set I asked if I could put them against the wall...or if that defeated the purpose...and he said it did...so...we'll work around it somehow! I was excited to get 30 secs on my first one! And then 20 on the second two sets...after the crunches. Those crunches KILLED me the next day...they look so easy but pack a punch for sure.
Anyway...we also talked about the boxing twice a week. He was going to check the schedule since there is only one group class room, and we usually use that for the pad training since it's got enough room to move around in. If it's free I'll be doing Tues and Thurs boxing! I think it is free...so we'll see what happened on Thursday this week.
We are staying away from to many squat/exercises right now. My job changes quite a bit in the summer. I work for a private day camp in the area in the office as the office manager. During the year I do lots of sitting, but during the summer...since the office we're in is too small we don't have the computers downstairs. So I'm up and down two flights of stairs pretty much all day...as well as running notes to counselors and bringing kids to groups etc. Good for the waistline...I get plenty of NEAT there...but...the stairs turn out to be bad for the knees. By the end of last summer I was hardly able to walk. Hopefully if I take it easier for a few weeks till camp is over it'll be better this year!
Anyway...gotta be at work by 7:30...so...off to beddy bye!!!
Linear Mode
