Never 2 Late 2 Chase the Dream (it's better than liposuction)

[kfisherx]

Originally Posted by UConnJulie

You are also not finishing fully erect. At the very end your hips and knees stay slightly flexed. You want to really squeeze through the glutes and fully extend at the end.

Interesting.... There is so much contradiction in this world of weight lifting. Today was quad day with Noel (new trainer). I told him about the GM out of the squats so he offered to look at that with me. It turns out that there really isn't a big issue but if I don't think or lose focus that is how I trend.

Here is the interesting part. I did a full extend and glute squeeze at the end of my squats and he asked me what the heck I was doing. So I told him. He informed me that isn't to be done. The motion of a squat should be like a piston with no stopping or locking out at the end. Up and down and don't worry about ROM so much as keeping the presser on the quads and pushing up and down smoothly. So that is how we did them. In fact he stressed that ROM is really not so important when hypertrophy is the goal.

We did the 3 quad exercises that he always does for quads. Squats and the 2 machines (perfect squat machine and leg press). He piled the weight on me again. By the last 2 sets in the leg press I was hurting. I just did not have the strength to move the weights. So for the last set he added more weight. He is insane.

I gave this last set everything I had and when he finally let me lock the weights in I rolled out of the machine and tried to stand but immediately fell to the floor. He laughed and told me to just lie there for awhile and get my bearings. He walked over to the desk with great happiness in my dilema. I think he went over there and put a mark in the wall. After about 30 seconds or so I tried to stand up again and I could manage it. My legs were shaking like mad. Noel walks over and instructs me to sit on a nearby weight bench. I sit and the shaking got worse for awhile. It took a long while for them to stop.

He seemed really impressed said over and again "Now that is a workout girl" and then he told me that there are not many people that can work that hard. He let me know that it was all good. I just sat there drooling and shaking and looking like an idiot. He also said he was very confident with this work ethic that he could put on 10lb of LBM this bulk. I don't know.... I could only put on 7 last year and that was my first year. It doesn't seem possible to me. Still I am going to try for 10lb with a 15lb gain. All this said, I will most likely not stick with him through the whole bulk. He is pretty far out and once I get my CPT school over with I probably will not want to drive out there every week.

I am learning SOOOO much in this school. I am having to really study my ass off though to keep up with the agenda. The other guys in the class have all been lifting their lives and I for just 10 months. Fortunately the training I got with David seems to be pretty sound and I have many of the concepts already. That said the guy who is teaching the course (who would also be the gym owner) is crazy picky about doing things correctly. I am almost terrified to even audition.

This guy is a WITs teacher for ACSM at the college. He is also a pretty darned good trainer from what I can tell. I will definately workout with him for some period of time too. He is so amazingly intense that it almost scares me though. He is into all the things like warming up and stretching, rolling, etc. In a siq way I just wanna get in and get out already. That is the way Noel trains and that actually fits my personality type okay even though it is most likely destroying my body....

[kfisherx]

Originally Posted by stingo

The whole series is worth watching... but here's the pertinent info...

Originally Posted by Espi

A GM is a goodmorning. An exercise to strengthen the lower back which also targets the hamstrings. It's also how a squat looks like when you lean forwards too much.
On your weighted squat form is good, the unweighted one (probably a bit too hurried?) not as much.. you were leaning forwards too much.

But hey, don't think mine are so good: it's just easier to spot the errors in someone else. Truly wished I'd videotaped my own exercises so as to see what went wrong.

Thanks you two (and Julie too) all very helpful. I am much more aware now of how to do this exercise more correctly.

[stingo]

From my own (limited) experience, bouncing out of the hole is easier than taking a second or two pause while in it. It's probably also the reason why pin squats are so hard, because you're not using momentum as much to come up.

[UConnJulie]

You really do want to move through an entire range of motion with all exercises, be it bicep curls or squats. Stopping short of the full range can lead to injury and dysfunction (I'm not talking about 1/4 squats here, or doing 21s for biceps where you purposely use a smaller range of motion). To me, where you are stopping in that squat shows that your glutes aren't doing their share of the work, and that your quads are.

At the top of the Training forum is a stickied series called the Squat Rx. I highly recommend that you watch it!

I think it is a good idea to not stick with that trainer ... he doesn't sound safe IMO!

[kfisherx]

Julie I watched many of the videos and not one suggested the glute squeeze at the top. So I posted on the training forum and it turns out that NROL recommends not locking out at the top too (keeping pressure on the quads)

Besides this one thing, is there something else that isn't "safe"? Or do you know why doing squats this way is not safe?

I am getting a bit scared as I study for my cert. I really need to have this stuff understood....

Also interesting point RE doing full ROM. This training gym as a whole does not recommend doing the typical ROM that you see people doing all the time. Like on the bench press when you see people touching the bar to their chest. That is putting a shitload of weight on your shoulders and not doing anything for your chest. They recommend stopping at 90% angle from the shoulder and pressing up and not locking out at the top. One smooth motion with breath in and breath out on concentric for a count of 1.5 secons on each.

[kfisherx]

Tonight was an awesome workout at 24 hour. I was able to do my workout and not watch all the training wrecks that were going on.

I did back first and I hit three of the hammer grip machines. I did wide iso-lats row and lying rows and then did a cable reverse grip pull down. After I was finished with these I was swol in the lats. I then did tris with close grip bb press, skull crushers and finished with cable (rope) pull downs. Now my shoulders and tris were swol too. I could hardly put my arms by my side and it looked so cool. I was gonna quit but instead did some bicep stuff just for that swol effect.

It is such a cool feeling when the body does that. I then decided to shower and sit in the sauna with a pump on. Does life get any better?

[Espi]

Karla, I literally burst out laughing when I read 'swole'.

Everything I read about the way they advocate lifting in your new gym smells and reads: hypertrophy and... equating 'pump' (feeling swole right?) with that same hypertrophy. I wished I could confirm this is true.. perhaps it is.. just like I said, short rests and creating a lot of lactic acid (which will cause that pump) can induce hypertrophy.
I can also see why they don't want you to do a full ROM on the bench press as it takes the load off the chest. However... they are missing the forest for the trees here.. a bench press is not done as a 'body part' exercise. It's a basic upper body exercise that targets many muscles at once. Same for the squat & deadlift.
Doing these with a small ROM would defeat the purpose. If you really want to target the chest muscles for instance, flyes or db presses would be more appropriate than bb presses.. at least I think so

Anyone..?

[stingo]

...and there are some who feel that push-ups > other chest exercises...

Grats on getting your swol on.

[Espi]

Want to add that one of the reasons I laughed was not that I laugh AT you but WITH you.. your excitement literally burst off the page. You are SUCH a teenager boy at heart

While pump is generally useless for athletes, it's a nice feeling if you're not facing the negative consequences (lesser performance). Still vividly remember the first time I ever felt pumped. From one moment to the other my cycling jersey (generally cyclists have pitifully small arms) felt too tight! Waaaay cool!

[kfisherx]

Originally Posted by Espi

..You are SUCH a teenager boy at heart

LOL!! You are SO right my friend. I laugh at that too so it is all good. This gym IS a bodybuilding gym and I am only interested in Hypertrophy this next 5 months followed by a month of strength so I am getting exactly what I asked for I think. I will do some general functional training in there too but for the most part I am looking to grow, GROW, GROW this next cycle. The gym is a refreshing break from the exclusive rich people gyms I have been going to with puke buckets by the squat rack (literally) and old school bbing porn all over the wall.

WRT to ROMs and exercise, I am studying right now about the planes of the body as well as specific muscle groups and I get exactly why you do not want to touch the bb to your chest during a press now. If your goal is to exercise the chest and you go to the ROM, it places the burden of the weight to you superspinitis (I think that is the one) or your one shoulder muscle (It maybe the subscapularas). You can feel this transfer if you pay attention during the movement. The point is that your shoulder muscles should not be tested with this much weight. It just jacks them up over a period of a couple of years. This same theory goes for flyes, etc. Anytime the transfer goes to the non-target muscle group and that muscle group is not designed for that sort of load.... Or anytime the plane changes and the resistance no longer matches the plane such as in lat pull downs when you rotate the shoulders to bring the bar all the way to the chest.

So on the other side of the fence (argument) do you know if these theories are bullshit?

[UConnJulie]

Karla, I never said that not fully finishing the squat is unsafe. But working in partial range of motions over time can lead to injury. The joints and muscles are made to go through full ranges of motion. Why would you want to sell your body short and only train partial ranges? I guess for bodybuilding/aethetics you might, to unnaturally overdevelop a certain portion of the muscle ... but remember that it leads to excess wear and tear on the joints.

Ask JP about his body woes as a 40 year old former competitive bodybuilder.

Bench press is a horrible exercise for your body. Just as are dips. I should rephrase that. Both exercises have a high injury risk to benefit ratio. There are better exercises to get good strength and hypertrophy without the high injury risk. (ie chest flyes, cable crossovers, pushup variations)

[kfisherx]

Okay thanks Julie for jumping in here and helping me to understand. When you gave me advice to leave my trainer because he does not sound safe to you I infered it was due to the way I was doing squats. So you are instead talking about how the exercises are not full range of motion then? Okay I get that.

BUT....

What about the biomechanical argument that they give me for keeping the range of motion shorter. Let's talk flyes since we both agree that is a good exercise. When you are doing flyes (say side lateral ones or aduction ones), if you start with db by your side completely and move upwards, the first 0-30% you are primarily using the supraspinitous (sp) and/or the subscapularus and not the lats/pecs or other larger muscles. The rotator muscles are not designed to be under really heavy weights whereas the lats/pecs and other larger muscles are. So if I went full range of motion I would have to go very lightly soas not to jack up my rotator cuff over time. That would have almost no benefit for my lats/pecs/etc.

The same could be said of the lat pull down, using a motion where the resistance is with the frontal plane. You continue to bring the bar down until your arms are 90 degrees from the shoulder and you are using your lats as primarly movers. As soon as you go under that, you switch to the transverse plane and your shoulders become the primary movers. Again the rotator/shoulders are not designed to handle that sort of weight. So if you do full reps, in about 4 years you will have destroyed rotator cuffs. (according to the sources I am hearing right now)

So what to do if you want to gain size in mucles and do it evenly and safely? What sort of weight lifting does not result in injury over time?

You guys will have to pardon me if I have things all screwed up. This stuff is all still pretty new to me and I am trying to wrap my head around it as best as possible.

[UConnJulie]

No, I think that trainer is unsafe because he pushed you beyond what is normal ... what you experienced in not something I think you (general "you" as a trainer) should push someone towards. I think you can get results without bringing someone to that brink ...

I'm not sure which exercise you are talking about in your first example? Lateral raises? The middle delt is recruited during that exercise above 30 degrees. And yes, for rehabilitation reasons we limit range all the time FOR A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME. I'm not sure what you mean by full range on a lateral raise ... you really only go to shoulder height at the most. The lats are not involved at all in a lateral raise movement, nor are the pecs ... both might work as minor stabilizers.

Rotator cuff work is helpful in someone whose rotator cuff is dysfunctional/weak ... perhaps someone who has spent too much time doing bench press and lat pulldowns instead of pushups and chin ups. But in for general fitness, it typically isn't necessary. But I also wouldn't put lateral raises into the category of rotator cuff work, since most of the movement uses the deltoids as the prime movers.

For lat pulldowns, it depends on how you are doing the movement and what grip you are using. Narrow grip to your chest, stays in the frontal plane ... wide grip to your hips will pull in the rotator cuff.

The issue with lat pull downs and shoulders is that many people who design their own programs (using typical bodybuilder body part split workouts) don't balance the rotations. They might balance the push/pull aspect, but not rotation. So if they do heavy bench press (an internal rotation biased movement) and heavy lat pull downs (also internal rotation), over time the rotator cuff gets weak, you develop shoulder impingement, etc. But if instead you balanced with face pulls (external rotation), bent over rows (external rotation), push ups (which activate the scapular stabilizers), deadlifts (also scapular stabilizers, and isometric rotator cuff), etc. you don't get the same issues.

Hypertrophy is more a matter of progressive overload ... using a specific rep/set scheme.

I'm BIG on functional movements ... given my background as a therapist that should be no surprise. That does not mean that I am against isolation moves or even machines or body part splits necessarily ... as long as the programming is smart.

The problem is that much of the time the programming is not smart.

Do you have New Rules of Lifting by Lou Schuler and Alwyn Cosgrove? Lou does a great job explaining the benefits of more functional movement pattern based exercise ... and he explains a bit about hypertrophy versus strength versus fat loss programming. It's a quick and easy read and inexpensive too. For your education it would be a good addition to your library.

[kfisherx]

Julie thanks for the great instruction. I don't have NROL but I had NROL4W and gave it to a friend. I think I will purchase NROL though as I really like the way that book works.

I need some time to sort through all of this information. I thank you again here for all the time you are taking to help me understand this stuff.