[Jean-Paul]

It is great that you have caring friends to come to your aid so fervently.

It has nothing to do with "caring"... It has to do with logical arguments. Bryan has defended his position without emotion, simply looking at the facts available to him, some of which you provided, some that he found on his own.

I will forward your objections to their research technique to Dr. Packer, Dr. Gellermann, Dr. Talbott and the research scientist involved. Maybe they will post a response. I never asked you to take anything at face value, but with a little less adversarial approach (instead of a direct frontal assault) I would have been happy to put you directly in contact with Dr. Gellermann or Dr. Packer to discuss your objections.

Still avoiding the issue... They may be good scientists, but that in and of itself is not enough reason to believe pharmanex's claims. Peer review, with no concern given to the name on the research, but only the research model itself.

He agreed with the general principal and liked the statement. Sorry You Disagree.

I don't think that Bryan even said he disagreed with the statement... He was merely pointing out that you were using the statement outside of its original context.

I find it interesting that so many of you have nothing better to do with your time than search the web through thousands of Pharmanex hits to seek out my “identity”, (unless as a moderator you had access to the confidential login information, why won't you list your e-mail?).

So many? Don't let the actions of one speak for everyone. Tony is a moderator, but he does not have access to your personal information. As administrator _I_ do, but I will not use it in that manner. Tony legitimately found your info on the web, because he is an internet and search engine badass. You will also note that after receiving your email requesting that it be taken out that it was promptly done.

I never tried to hide the fact that I sold their products.

Your first two posts read like they intended to agree with the principles which we were espousing, then slyly started leading the reader into a sales pitch. I don't really have a problem with that or I would have simply erased your post as spam, but I like to give people the opportunity to defend their positions so I waited. You seem very defensive. I think one thing that happened is that you got in a little over your head with these guys, not realizing their educational backgrounds when you were talking down to them. And yes, in my view it seemed as though you were talking down to us.

Dont' think that this group hasn't even put MY feet to the fire. They have, trust me! You just quickly learn that you can't make unsubstantiated blanket statements in here or someone will call bullshit. Makes me take more time to be more thoughtful of my posts, which in turn, raises the post quality of the entire forum. Please don't think that I want you to go away at all. I would very much like to see you participate in some of our discussions, even in topics that don't lead to an eventual sale. One thing that we all have in common is a love for fitness and health, and the desire to share it with others. No one in here is paid for their presence. Not even me! I don't make a red cent by hosting this site.

JP – you say this is a non-adversarial group.
“Only if you agree with them!”

Being put in a position to have to defend your claims can be tough, but if your products and claims can be easily substantiated then you should have no problem. I would be very disappointed to see you duck out of here because you can't take a little logical jousting.

You have told us a lot about the doctors who did the research, but we are obviously more interested in the actual studies themselves. Can you post some links to some actual studies that we can read?